Bicycle Diaries of Bend with Don Leet

Speaker 1: 0:31

One of my favorite memories of Don is my family was friends with him and the shop, and he gave me a ride to a bike race because I couldn't drive. I was 15. I went to Mammoth Mountain for I think they called it the World Championships, maybe it was just the National Championships. It was 1989, and I was 14 or 15. And on the drive down there in his Audi, I remember him telling me we were talking about this and that and I was all excited to race, you know. And he said to me yeah, you're excited about bikes now, but next year you're going to turn 16 and you're going to get a car and you're never going to ride your bike again just like everybody else. I was like, oh my God, he's probably right. That's terrible. I hope that.

Speaker 1: 1:24

I still like riding bikes when I get a car.

Speaker 1: 1:27

And here I am, all these years later, still proof of them wrong and proud to be doing it. I'm Carl Decker and I am a professional mountain bike racer, 48 years old now but grew up in Bend and am a product of growing up in Bend and the bike culture. Here I like to say I'm not really anything special, but I kind of grew up in a special circumstance, growing with Bend and the bike community and the trails and the racing. Here I'm still riding and still making a living doing what I love.

Speaker 2: 2:12

It's been a wild ride were hard and things were bad. There's a silver lining behind every cloud. Just four people, that's all we were trying to make a living out of Blackland dirt. We grew together in a family circle, singing loud.

Speaker 4: 2:30

On episode 51 of Ben Magazine's the Circling Podcast, I have the privilege of sitting down with longtime Central Oregon resident and lifetime contributor to the sport of cycling, mr Don Leap. Don shares his story of moving to Bend in the early 70s and his own involvement during the early days of mountain biking as the co-owner of one of Bend's oldest bike shops in town, sunnyside Sports, don has witnessed the evolution and trends in cycling over the last 45 years that allow us to have a great conversation. Don and I discuss the unique time the cycling industry finds itself in after the pandemic, the comparisons between the growing trends in gravel cycling in the early days of mountain biking, why mountain biking and mountain bike trail building is unique in Central Oregon and much more. An accomplished bike racer, don was one of the founders and the original race director of the Cascade Cycling Classic, the longest running elite road bike stage race in the country that ran from 1980 to 2019, attracting some of the best men and women cyclists from around the world.

Speaker 4: 3:39

It should go without saying that there are many in our community who deserve credit for fostering the growth of cycling in all of its forms, and it should also go without saying that Don Leak is one of those individuals. I appreciated this one, don. Thanks for your time, old friend. The Circling Podcast can be found on Patreon. Visit our page and learn how a percentage of your financial support will support local nonprofits and the continued growth of local community podcasting. Become a member and learn about this unique opportunity at patreoncom. Forward slash the circling podcast or see the link in the show notes. Lastly, remember to stay tuned after the show credits to hear from don as he contributes to our blank canvas community art project that explores the magic found in art embedded with me. I still ride around on my Ripley that you built. Awesome, that bike's 10 years old, 11 years old now yeah, no.

Speaker 4: 4:42

The fur.

Speaker 3: 4:43

Now that we got the bottom bracket fixed. Finally, after the first five years.

Speaker 4: 4:48

Well, those first models, I think it had a press fit bottom bracket and then it went threaded. But I mean that bike still rides. I mean other than limitations on tire sizes. There's no need for me to get another one. It rides great. It's a little squeaky in the bottom bracket, but you know I'm a big guy, I put a lot of torque on the cranks man. Yeah, put on some music. Oh, I do. I got these new bone conduction headphones.

Speaker 3: 5:14

Have you seen these?

Speaker 4: 5:14

Yeah, these new bone conduction headphones. Have you seen these? Yeah, for riding and running. No, I know what they are, it's incredible.

Speaker 3: 5:18

But you see, I have these $5,000 things, oh yeah, you can just do those dial right in your phone and your. Well, I find it ironic. I have these expensive things so I can hear you.

Speaker 4: 5:30

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 5:30

And then you have these expensive things, so you don't hear. Of course the bone ones are much better. I mean, there's nothing worse than on a mountain bike catching someone, and then they're just scared out of their wits.

Speaker 4: 5:42

Oh yeah, Totally, and it's like what do you expect? Yeah.

Speaker 3: 5:46

You're wearing these earphones? Yeah, do you get scared like 25 times a day and then act like it? Never happened.

Speaker 4: 5:53

I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 5:54

Act like it never happened. I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but what you have is a good deal.

Speaker 4: 5:57

Yeah, they're cool man the bone conduction. I remember really learning the difference between bone and air conduction and hearing. That's why I like wearing headphones during podcast recording because, unlike air conduction, which is how you hear yourself, and then people hear themselves on a voicemail and they go oh, that's what I sound like when you listen to yourself talking with headphones on, you're getting air conduction, which is your voice resonating through the airwaves, not your voice resonating through your skeletal structure which is why it sounds different.

Speaker 3: 6:31

So yeah, that's interesting.

Speaker 4: 6:35

Well, where should we begin?

Speaker 3: 6:36

Don Lee, the fact that I'm retired and I get to ride my bike more, yeah, I don't know. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 6:45

Partially retired.

Speaker 3: 6:46

Yeah, I'm retired. I'm retired to the point where I'm only working because I like it. Yeah, and you know, unfortunately, as Mike at the store says, it's still work. But you know, I just if they need something extra, I'll work more. Yeah, but I usually don't, and it's quite fun.

Speaker 4: 7:06

Where do you think your passion for cycling came from?

Speaker 3: 7:11

It started young, yeah, maybe through my dad. Okay, it started young, yeah, maybe through my dad. Okay, you know my dad rode a bike when he was a kid. So they moved from Kentucky to Montana just before World War II Wow, and you know it was after the—it was still during the Depression and he was too young to go into the war. So he had these like a couple of free years and they lived like east of Glacier National Park and he had this coaster break bike and you have two gears, you have two cogs, you know. So he had those easy gear going up to Glacier and when he got there he'd stop, take the cog off, but on the higher gear and ride home.

Speaker 3: 8:02

And then later, you know, he after the war and stuff, you know, and he his 50s quite a bit, and I think just growing up a bike was something that he just expected. He never made us ride or anything, but it was just something that he just knew. And he didn't really even ride with us because he was gone all the time, but we just knew that he liked to ride and we liked to ride. And you know, I did this big trip when I was 14, from I live in the Bay Area and we rode across California to Yosemite and then Yosemite to Reno, to Tahoe and back. I don't think 14-year-olds would be doing that kind of stuff today.

Speaker 4: 8:54

No, not at all.

Speaker 3: 8:55

Yeah, it's a different no cell phones.

Speaker 4: 8:58

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 8:58

You know, I'd call my mom every. She wanted me to call her once a week. So I called you know and she was worried, you know.

Speaker 4: 9:06

So were you born in California or were you born in Montana, montana, okay.

Speaker 3: 9:11

I'm actually, my mom's, canadian. My dad was an American citizen. So I'm a dual citizen, but we moved to California when I was in first grade, okay, and I lived there 12 years, yeah.

Speaker 4: 9:27

And then, as soon as you moved from California, you moved to Bend.

Speaker 3: 9:33

No, I went to school at Humboldt State in Alicata, california, and my parents moved from California up to Wenatchee, of all places, okay, and from there they moved to the Methow Valley, to Winthrop, before there was cross-country skiing, believe it or not, up there. And so I left the Bay Area when I was, when I was 17, and I really have barely ever been back. Yeah, and then, when I went to Humboldt, I was a forestry major, until I realized what that was all about was cutting trees. But I worked for the Forest Service. So I moved to Bend to work for the US Forest Service In 1969? No, well, in 1969, I moved.

Speaker 4: 10:15

I to work for the US Forest Service In 1969?.

Speaker 3: 10:17

No, well, in 1969, I moved, I was in Palina, okay. So actually there's a ranger station out there called Rager Ranger Station. It's about 20 miles northeast of the town of Palina, okay, you know, about 80 miles from Prineville, and I worked there. Then I worked in Chiloquan, I worked a season in California, near, you know, north of Yosemite, and then I moved to Bend, right after that 74.

Speaker 4: 10:47

And that in 1974. So I think, from what I've learned, preparing and learning about this, just the history of mountain biking, you know, I mean I thought I knew it until I really started studying it, this these last couple of weeks, and you know, so, mid seventies, people were experimenting, is what comes to mind. I mean putting bigger tires on old frames and, you know, uh, riding different types of terrain that hadn't historically been ridden with normal bikes. Um, I mean and correct me if I'm wrong if you have a different recollection that hadn't historically been ridden with normal bikes. I mean, and correct me if I'm wrong if you have a different recollection no, you know it's so.

Speaker 3: 11:22

When I worked for the Forest Service, I was a firefighter. Okay, so the first year I worked here. I just want to put this in perspective. I worked 77 days in a row, so I didn't have time for anything other than putting out forest fires, and maybe I put out too many. Maybe if we had a few more burn, we wouldn't have all the fuel that's left in the forest.

Speaker 3: 11:44

So I wasn't really involved in cycling that first year or two because they didn't have these rules that you could only work so many days. And then it wasn't just eight hours a day, it was like 77 days, 10 hours a day, and I was able to buy a house with a down payment, even though you know, that being said, the way I look at old mountain biking, or original mountain biking, is there's the novelty people who actually had nothing to do with the development of the sport. And then there was the people who actually thought, oh, this could be a sport, this could be new. I don't know if you see the difference, but some people just said, well, I'll just take my bike here and say I rode it. And then they didn't do anything to make they didn't. What they did wasn't fun. What they did didn't do anything to develop the sport. They took photos, and that was what I call novelty writing. And then you have people who did maybe a similar thing and then rode down and thought this is hilarious, maybe we could figure this out, and they started kind of building bikes.

Speaker 3: 12:57

You know, the big limitation back then was equipment. Right, you know, the only reason they made 26-inch mountain bikes is because they didn't have fat tires for bigger wheels it had nothing to do with. And you know, some small Gary Fisher guy isn't going to go to some big tire manufacturer and say I need 100 road-sized fat tires. Right, you know, and I don't know if you know, but Bontrager made one of the first aluminum mountain bike lightweight mountain bike rims. He took a 700C or a road-size, cut it and welded it together to smaller size, only because that's when they could get the bigger tires. So to me it's a differentiation.

Speaker 4: 13:44

No, I would agree. I think I observed that as well, and I think that's a really good way to classify it in terms of novelty and then people who saw the potential for innovation and acted on it.

Speaker 3: 13:58

I mean the people you know there's more than a couple, but you know the ones you think of are really in Marin County and in Colorado, like Crested Butte, and it was two different kind of groups.

Speaker 4: 14:11

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 14:12

And, but it developed fast. Fortunately you know like in, but you know the thing to remember. So when I was a kid riding my bike in the Bay Area, you know I had an old Peugeot 10-speed but we used to ride on the dirt all the time. You know it wasn't like so when someone had the idea of riding on dirt we weren't like going wow, that's crazy. It was more like oh cool.

Speaker 3: 14:42

That would actually work better. So it wasn't. So you had the people that developed. I'm not going to say I was one of them, but I will say I was one of the ones that when you started seeing it, you didn't just shake your head and say this is dumb. You actually go oh man, I wish I would have thought of that. Yeah, but so and.

Speaker 3: 15:00

I think that's one of the reasons it developed so fast yeah, Because you know, when we used to ride our bikes, it wasn't, you know, there was less pavement and you, we liked riding on dirt. It was quite fun. Yeah, and it was part of the part of the bike riding Absolutely Well.

Speaker 4: 15:15

I mean, you lived and been during a time similar to Marin County, similar to areas in Colorado where there was this kind of grassroots, and it's always fascinating to me because I feel like there's other sports where this has happened, snowboarding being one of them.

Speaker 4: 15:30

You know, there's always some degree of debate on where snowboarding really originated, right, and who was the first one. And I almost get that similar type experience or feeling when you start reading about the early days of mountain biking in terms of people starting to build frames specific to this style of writing you have, like the Joe Breeze and the Tom Richies and you know, in Marin County, and then there was a host of people in Central Oregon frame builders that I had never even heard of that started building frames. And you know, granted, it's all within like what it seems like a four to five year window kind of you know, when things were progressing and evolving slower than what we're used to in 2024, because there wasn't this, you know, worldwide communication pipeline in your pocket where you knew what other people were doing the same day. You know things happen slower and the progress it seems like Well, you know.

Speaker 3: 16:29

I would actually say you know. So you take the gravel bike phenomenon Okay, and which I find interesting because basically it's mountain bike over, mountain bikes start over, because it's exactly the same. You know, you've got bigger tires, you've got suspension. But if you think about the development of gravel bikes, I would say mountain bikes were faster. Yeah, you know, it was one.

Speaker 3: 17:01

So I had a friend who moved to Bend in 1981, who was the Trek regional rep, and his area was Washington, oregon and Northern california. So why not live in bend, right? Yeah, um, and then he got a job as a product manager for trek in 1983 and before that he gave me trek's prototype mountain bike. So I I rode Trek's first mountain bike they ever built and they gave it to him because he lived in Oregon. Do you really need a mountain bike in Wisconsin? Well, you know. So they thought, well, okay, we'll test this out. So I rode that bike for a few years and that to me is fast. Um, that to me is fast. I mean, if you think about no mountain bikes in 1980. Yeah, trek makes a mountain bike in 1983. Yeah, and then in 84, we're selling. This basically came from nowhere. Yeah, you think about gravel bikes First of all. We've had cyclocross bikes forever.

Speaker 4: 18:16

Right.

Speaker 3: 18:17

So what's the difference between a cyclocross bike and a? Well, there is no difference. Okay, I mean, if you look at Ibis, their gravel bike, is their cyclocross bike and it really doesn't make sense.

Speaker 3: 18:29

I think Specialized is the same way. You know some companies make both. But so the gravel bike thing I think actually kind of just takes. You know it's actually taken longer to figure out what people want. The mountain bike thing, you know if you take you know there's a lot of development after it came out. But the truth is you know you could ride the same trails a day on some of those original mountain bikes. Oh yeah, so I thought it was. I think it was actually pretty fast.

Speaker 4: 19:06

I would agree. I mean, you bring up an interesting point, which is, you know, nothing's really that new. It's like this. It almost feels like it's the same story being retold, with with the sprinkling in of new technology that makes things more comfortable and easier to do. But you know, the same experience people were having on a mountain bike riding logging road trails around here before the network, the trail network, is the same experience people have nowadays, for the most part riding a gravel bike on the same logging roads. And when people can, you know, manipulate an industry to start diversifying, how you can profit from it? I mean, then you can start to see how the marketing and growth and evolution of an industry is born. You know, I mean no exactly.

Speaker 3: 19:56

And I think when you look at the gravel bike, what I see about the gravel bike is really cool road bikes that you can put fat tires on yeah, and they're not mountain bikes. But when Phil and I get together, we just shake our heads. So why are these people riding the roads that we didn't want to ride on, that we built trails for the last 40 years? I don't understand actually. So for me, as you know but maybe the listeners don't I own Sunnyside Sports for 40 years. I know the bike industry, but I still shake my head because I don't quite get what. You know, I have a friend oh yeah, we rode up the 370 road and over to Sisters and I said, yeah, and then we built a trail so I wouldn't have to do that anymore. And you think that's fun, I mean, but it is fun for them and I understand that, but it is a recycle.

Speaker 4: 21:00

It's the adventure, you know, and the ability, like there's something about riding a bike that is just so fundamentally simple. It's speed, it's you know where we live, it's access to nature, it's community building, it's you know, and and yeah, I mean it's it's an, it's not overly complicated, you know. We're talking about bicycles, you know.

Speaker 3: 21:29

You know you're right. At the end of the day, you're right, and you know I have friends that like to ride gravel bikes, so I have to have a bike that I can ride with them. But it's basically a very lightweight mountain bike with skinny tires, because I like suspension, yeah. But you know you're right, I think the bike is an amazing thing. Yeah, you know, and it's fun to see all these people ride. I agree, it's fun to see all these people ride. I agree.

Speaker 4: 21:55

Lev Stryker, who owns and operates Cogwild yeah, I got in touch with him and I wanted to share.

Speaker 6: 22:13

He just had some thoughts on the people that came before him in this community. The way I think about it as far as those guys like the forefathers of the sport and Ben's is like they were kind of original and groundbreaking and trying a new thing, and probably really good athletes, you know, and that drove them to try this stuff that no one else was trying before and they were building trails in ways that no one else had you know, no one had tried. They were experimenting along the way. They were pioneers in this way and doing it underground in a lot of ways too, right Like under the not really sure if they had permission or not or whatever it was.

Speaker 6: 22:45

And over the years what their efforts have turned into is like one of the most accessible and complex trail networks anywhere, you know, and you have trail access right from town and complex trail networks anywhere you have trail access right from town. People ride right to and from their houses who live in bends. The shuttle network is vast. You can do something really direct and easy that anyone can ride. Who calls themselves a mountain biker? Or you can diverge a little bit and you're on those tough black diamond trails that uh have developed over the years, you know, seeing that whole progression of it was just some dudes in the woods kind of scratching around trying to find a new sport, you know, but not even knowing sure what they're doing half the time to like one of the most renowned accessible networks anywhere, you know.

Speaker 4: 24:11

I, I hear and this is something I love so much, because it seems like everybody was just having a lot of fun doing stuff. And you know, that's the theme I get when I talk to all the different people that have contributed to mountain biking in our community over the years is originally no one had any big goal, it just seemed like it was defining itself and it was fun. You got outside with your friends, it was a way to you know, I mean even trail building. I mean you know why do you think mountain biking's done so well in Central Oregon? What about Central Oregon made it pop? I mean, I have my ideas, but Well, so you know.

Speaker 3: 24:56

So we get these mountain bikes and we do a few races. It's like Whiskey Town downhill. That's this big race down by Redding and they race in Ashland, called Revenge of the Siskiyous. And it was interesting. But I was talking to Carl Decker a year or so ago and we were just laughing about Revenge of the Siskiest. It was like this 40-mile race with 100 yards of single track, 100 yards, 100 yards.

Speaker 3: 25:29

40-mile race, 40-mile race 100 yards and basically you started in the town of Ashland, you went up through the watershed, you got to the ski area, you went on some back forest roads and then they had to connect these two forest roads because you wanted to get to this mining road. So they built this 100 yards of single track and then that was mountain biking and so in Bend we just thought the single track was more fun. I would say and I know, if you talk to Phil, what he would say, but what you know, I still am a big volunteer with COTA. I clear trails and stuff. I've been doing it since 1984.

Speaker 3: 26:24

And people say oh Don, you're awesome and it's like the only reason I do this is because I like to ride my mountain bike and I don't like walking over logs and if you get to enjoy it, too awesome. I mean, I'm not. I realize that I'm a go-getter and I like to do stuff and I like people to appreciate me. But the truth of the matter is, if I was the only person that rode a mountain bike, I'd still do it, and Phil always was worried that he was going to get too old to ride and there wouldn't be enough trails to ride and so we were more thinking, not. And the Forest Service, we figured, wouldn't think that mountain bikes were a thing forever. So the deal with bikes in the woods back then is you could ride your bike anywhere you wanted. There was no rules. I mean even the wilderness. At first, in fact, phil and I rode around the Three Sisters twice when it was legal, or maybe not quite legal, but they hadn't really defined it. They hadn't defined it.

Speaker 3: 27:31

Because we did see Forest Service people when we did it and no one said anything. But basically, if you think about the original trails that we built, if you look at Phil's trail, especially the original part, what you get is someone who is riding through the woods around downed trees because we didn't actually want to carry chainsaws and stuff. And then that's how those trails were developed. And it's like Lev said did we get permission? No, but were we against the rules? No. And the truth is, if you find a bandit trail, even today, as long as it's not in the wilderness and there's no sign that says no bicycles, there's nothing that says a person cannot ride on a bandit trail I'm not encouraging people to build bandit trails.

Speaker 3: 28:24

I'm not encouraging people to ride them, but it is this gray area that allowed us to build trails without actually having someone stop us.

Speaker 1: 28:36

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 28:37

Because we weren't really doing damage. Yeah, and we knew very well that this was the funnest thing in the world, yeah, and it would catch on. Yeah, and it did. But the Forest Service still so. When they started making our trails official, I remember going out with a Forest Service person and we were actually going up Phil's, so just the section above the 300 road, and he was telling me oh, this is never going to work. I don't know if you know that trail, but it goes uphill it does a switchback.

Speaker 3: 29:16

Oh, this is going to wash out because we used some log. That trail's never washed out there. It's still exactly the way we built it, and the funny trail to me is South Fork.

Speaker 3: 29:28

Yeah, so the Forest Service built South Fork, it's the first trail the Forest Service built with the idea that maybe mountain bikes might use it sometimes. Okay, and if you look at it as a hiking trail, which they wanted, it's a total failure. The Forest Service built a horrible trail for hiking if mountain bikes were going to ride it. Us on mountain bikes, we love it because we just get more travel and the more the routes, the more rowdy it is, the more fun it is. But if you actually look at the trails that we built, you actually could run and hike on them Because we actually kind of had a better idea of the terrain that mountain bikes could handle.

Speaker 4: 30:31

I think the topography of kind of some of the foothill terrain in Central Oregon lends itself very well to cross-country style mountain biking. Compared to where I grew up I grew up in North Idaho it was like flat and then straight up and then you'd find some old motorcycle trail to descend, I think. And then the people the people here seem unique in terms of the trail systems were built by the users and there were people who were mentoring and educating and teaching how to trail build from very early on.

Speaker 3: 31:09

Well, I think you hit the nail on the head. When I moved to Bend. One of the reasons I liked it is that it's not. It's a very beautiful, awesome place to live. It's not like spectacular, like where I'm from in Montana. It's not like Glacier National Park. But not only is it user-friendly for mountain bikes, it's cross-country skiing. If you go to Meisner, the terrain at Meisner is super user-friendly. If you think about someone alpine skiing, you know people complain about Bachelor because it's too flat. That's what makes it so popular for families, and so, in a sense, what we have here is this heaven for user-friendly. You know you talk to some rowdy people that want downhill mountain bike trails. You know it's hard. You know there's a couple spots that you can do that in.

Speaker 4: 32:08

It's not Post Canyon and Hood River.

Speaker 3: 32:10

No.

Speaker 4: 32:10

Right, like it's just different terrain.

Speaker 3: 32:12

It is so it's really great terrain for normal people to ride the bikes and, like Lev said in that little, what he was talking about is I'm going to guess that I've driven my car to Phil's Trailhead less than 10 times. You know, I do drive to ride, but not if I'm going to ride that area, I just ride from home, and there's not that many places in the world where you can ride your mountain bike from home and that to me, that makes it real special.

Speaker 4: 32:46

Yeah, and something that's easy I can easily take for granted. You know, I mean, I think most of us can, when it becomes your norm every day and you're just. And you know, I mean I think most of us can, when it becomes your norm every day and you're just, you know it's easy, but it is so true, I mean there's, there's. Yeah, I often tell people to going back. You know, I think it's unique and been that, you know, we, we, we don't live in the mountains. We go to the mountains where you live somewhere. You grow up. Somewhere like North Idaho or Montana, you're in the mountains. It's different. Up somewhere like north idowa or montana, you're in the mountains, it's, it's different. So, yeah, I, I think the uh, the access to some of the foothill terrain in our, in our region, is, is unique and and lends itself really well to all the things that you see trail running, cycling, you know, cross-country skiing, um yeah, yeah know, and people aren't looking.

Speaker 3: 33:36

You know I get people in the store that come from BC, avid mountain bikers, yeah, and they come in like October and you say, well, you live in like mountain bike. You know everybody wants to go to BC. You know Whistler and North Shore and all that stuff and they go, yeah. But you know, sometimes you just want to ride on dirt, yeah, and they go, yeah. But you know, sometimes you just want to ride on dirt, yeah, and you don't want to ride on roots and rocks, yeah, and it's more relaxing, yeah. And so you know we have our own little positive, but it does make it super user-friendly, yeah.

Speaker 3: 34:10

And actually the other thing I don't know if people have ever been to Sandy Ridge or Alcee Falls. Those are two big areas, you know, one by Sandy and one in the Corvallis area. They're on BLM property. Millions of dollars were put into those trails to build so that they would be all weather, because that's what you need over there, and our trails were built by a guy walking around moving logs, and so we can. I'm not saying that there's certain things that we don't need to do. There's some rock gardens that we have problems with. Building a trail in central Oregon. It's not this huge, expensive production that it would take to build a trail in a different weather, etc.

Speaker 4: 35:04

What have you seen people get wrong with trail building over here over the years.

Speaker 3: 35:09

I think so. You may or may not know, but the Horse Ridge is going to be developed officially finally. It has the best terrain. In my mind that should have been developed years ago but they didn't ask me again. But what I worry about when they build trails there is the rocks around here become eroded. So I think the best example that I can tell people is the trail Tiddlywinks from the Steve Larson parking lot from over to Kiwa and the downhill trails. So when that trail was built you could ride that easily. It was so easy that I remember doing a 24-hour race riding it at night easily. I mean, I can't even think about riding that section.

Speaker 3: 36:33

And the reason is that our dirt erodes around the rocks, and so when you build a trail and you decide to go through some rocks that look pretty fun, you know, in 10 years those rocks become obstacles that become very difficult.

Speaker 3: 36:49

Yeah, and you have to Makes a lot of sense you have to fix that beforehand, you have to armor that kind of trail beforehand. I know that the trail builders at COTA are fully aware of what I'm talking about. So I'm not like and if you get a Paul Thomas Berg building a trail, he's way aware of that.

Speaker 4: 37:09

Yeah, but just the average person you know the average person that maybe has moved to Bend, has become passionate about mountain biking, wants to get involved, wants to get you know. Start volunteering with COTA. You know what are some of the fundamentals that they need to know?

Speaker 3: 37:26

Well, I think the first thing is they should go on a don't fix people's, other people's trails. I think the biggest fundamental is get in a group, a COTA building, trail building group. Those people are well trained, they're trying to fix the mistakes and, again, you know the mistakes that we made earlier are pretty simple. You know radiuses of curves, seeing how fast people are going to go down certain things, so you know the curves become if they're wrong. You end up with washboards, brake bumps and all that kind of stuff. So to me I think we're beyond having people.

Speaker 3: 38:12

It really is irritating when you have someone go out there and fix a trail that they have no business fixing. But the biggest mistakes that are made around here still are people build trails through rocks and they don't anticipate what's going to happen in the future. And at Horse Ridge that's the biggest issue. And then people complain. It's like, well, those rocks are unrideable now. So basically and they're not official trails so who you know, you got to make a real trail and you got to make it correct and then people will obey the protocols.

Speaker 3: 38:56

You know, one of the things I noticed around here. So I have friends who basically did the same thing in Scotland that we've done they started building trails. I have a friend who's the first mountain bike ranger in Scotland. I have a friend who was the first paid trail builder in Scotland. But when they come and visit, when they look at trails and they see, like someone, there's a mud spot and people ride around it, they blame the trail builder. They don't blame the rider. Here people tend to blame the rider for avoiding a mud hole or not going through rocks. And there they want to build a trail so good that people ride through it. And if you leave a spot that's a mud hole, fix it, don't just say don't. Put a sign up and say don't ride. And so I do find that a little interesting, where a well-built trail will be ridden properly and a trail that is built not so well will get you know you'll have detours and stuff.

Speaker 4: 40:07

Yeah yeah, you've had a long history of racing mountain bikes Well, racing bikes in general but I mean you were a road racer before you started racing mountain bikes.

Speaker 3: 40:17

Yeah yeah I think I decided I raced 50 years. Yeah, I think I decided I raced 50 years. I think I was 14 when I did my first race and I think I was 64 when I decided that I had enough. How?

Speaker 4: 40:30

old are you now? 73. 73. So it's been nine years since you raced a bike. I remember getting passed by you on the second lap at Pickett's Charge one of the last years it went. It's going damn.

Speaker 3: 40:45

Well, I think I remember seeing you and I was thinking well, god, he's faster than me on the downhill but maybe I'll catch him on this climb, maybe, man, I've always been a Clydesdale Clydesdales go slow uphill.

Speaker 4: 40:58

You did okay for yourself. Oh yeah, you know, I mean I mountain biking, I have a funny relationship with it because, you know, my first mountain bike was an old Schwinn that I got in Idaho and and I, I one one summer and this was probably in the late eighties. So you know, thinking back as a kid, I, you know, in my mind mountain biking had just always existed. But in reality it was, you know what, 10, 15 years old at most. And I remember descending this old motorcycle trail and it had rained the night before and my front tire got caught in a, in a, uh, in a rut, and I wrecked pretty hard into a tree and and I was pretty in a rut, and I wrecked pretty hard into a tree and and I was pretty, I was pretty timid about riding bikes downhill fast anymore around trees.

Speaker 4: 41:47

Um, you know, fast forward, whatever 15 years, when I bought that you know that bike from you at Sunnyside and man I, I mean I had lived in Ben since 98, but I had never tapped into the trails here until you know, the early tooth at like 2004, 2005. Um, and then, yeah, I mean it's, it's, uh. It quickly became a passion, you know. I mean um, and so was road biking. I remember I remember buying my first road bike from from uh century cycle and it was probably just a couple years before they went out of business and I moved here to pursue snowboarding. I did not know very many pro snowboarders or skateboarders that wore cycling kits.

Speaker 6: 42:47

And I remember the first time going on a road ride, riding my bike past the snowboard shop that I hung out all the time and being terrified that my buddies were going to see me in a kit.

Speaker 4: 42:57

But man.

Speaker 3: 42:57

I mean, there's nothing you know. Your first time in Lycra is, you know, it's a spiritual experience. Yeah, I think that's some truth to some truth to that, but you know, one of the best snowboarders in the U? S was an avid road rider. Who's it which?

Speaker 4: 43:06

one, oh yeah.

Speaker 3: 43:08

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 43:08

So you know, I think, yeah, it's well, that's why I got into it. I mean it's not, it doesn't you know? And even back then you know, I mean it's not. It doesn't take a genius to to connect the dots between your vocational sport has a lot to do with lower body strength. And what does cycling provide, right? I mean it's fitness, it's experience, it's speed, it's adventure, it's all the things.

Speaker 3: 43:33

Well, you know, the New York Times just did this survey about people exercising. Yeah, and one of the main things that they tell people is your exercise better be fun. Yeah, and one of the main things that they tell people is your exercise better be fun, yes. And so think about this you can go for a run or you can go for a bike ride. Yeah, and don't get me wrong, people love running, but it's not fun like a bike like a mountain bike ride.

Speaker 4: 43:57

It's not even close, it's you know it's super fun.

Speaker 3: 44:03

Keith at the store says if mountain biking made you really fat, I'd still do it and I'd be really fat. Yeah, you know, we don't do it for the exercise, we do it because how fun it is, right, and the exercise is there, yeah, so it's kind of a bonus. Well, I tell you, what I really like is I go to the Green Gate and I go for a ride and you get to the bottom and four women come down after riding and they're smiling, they're laughing, they're high-fiving each other, high-fiving each other. Yeah, and you know, in my generation there might not be four women that ride mountain bikes. I know a few. But the joy that you see with groups of whoever on mountain bikes is not the same as when you see someone finishing a road ride or a run. You know they might be happy, they might be satisfied, but they're not high-fiving, they're not laughing.

Speaker 3: 45:10

There's not this whole sense of joy, not just from being outdoors but just doing the funnest thing they've ever done. And I just find that so amazing that that's why the sport rocks.

Speaker 4: 45:25

Yeah. So you know you kind of jumping back to your story, you know you got, you were here in the early eighties and you became kind of a part of the Sunnyside community. I mean that bike shop was formed in the early 70s. From what I read and I think you purchased it in the early 80s.

Speaker 3: 45:47

Yeah, yeah. So Sunnyside started in 1972.

Speaker 1: 45:50

Right.

Speaker 3: 45:50

By two guys from Corvallis, gary Fowles and Jim DeSchmidt, and they were just college kids, graduating, and you know their wives were involved, joyce and Patty. You know Gary sold it to Jim and then Jim sold it to this kind of conglomerate of professionals who wanted to keep Sunnyside local because there was a guy from Southern California who actually lives in town still who wanted to buy it. Unfortunately, they were talked into borrowing some money to buy it and then they owed this money and interest rates were really high. So anyway, I became the manager in 1980. And, to keep the story short, I became the owner in 1983. And you know it was a joy but it was also really hard work.

Speaker 3: 46:57

You know I had my friend Gary Boniker help me out and it was without him I'm not sure I would have stayed in the business but there was a few other people, I don't want to name all the names, but it just became a passion and I was going to make this thing work, no matter what. Yeah, and I did. We were able to buy a building in 1990. People said, oh, you're crazy moving from downtown. You know, we were basically where the foot zone is and oh no, you should never move over there.

Speaker 3: 47:30

The bank who loaned me the money told me that I gave them the best presentation ever, and this was to relocate to Newport, yes, 1990. You know, and I had statistics of how Newport at the time was the second busiest street in Bend, third Street was the busiest. Newport was the second. I said, and this is where people are going to build all those fancy houses. You know, this is before it happened. And you know, fortunately, they loaned me the money. Bank of the Cascades, yeah, bank of the Cascades, you know, fortunately they loaned me the money.

Speaker 5: 48:02

Bank of the Cascades, yeah, bank of the Cascades, you know. Now they're called First Interstate, yeah.

Speaker 3: 48:03

But you know the local directors, I knew some of them but they trusted in me. Yeah, and you know. So you know we moved to Newport Avenue and that was the smartest thing we ever did. Yeah, so you know it's and mountain bikes became a huge important part. Yeah, you know, I think I did my first race in 1983, you know, and we got in totally behind the whole mountain bike scene as fast as we could. Yeah, you know, and that you know. That's kind of the history, you know, yeah.

Speaker 4: 48:46

And then just kind of, you know, small innovations over years. I mean, you mentioned and I was going to bring up and I wanted you to talk about your friend Gary Boniker, because you know I mean his contribution to mountain biking from what I read, not to mention I remember the tour to Chutes when it was going on and just that time frame. You know, for people who don't know, tell who Gary was to you and his story.

Speaker 3: 49:11

Gary was a huge. You know he loved cycling, he loved fixing bikes, he loved people fixing bikes, he loved people and having him. You know he I was a sole owner from 1983 until 1994.

Speaker 3: 49:32

And then Susan and Gary became my partners. Yeah, and he was an important part of of what he did. Yeah, um, and you know, unfortunately he was diagnosed with cancer. And you know, unfortunately he was diagnosed with cancer, lived 20 good years with the cancer. You know, started the tour de chutes, which was a huge thing in our town and unfortunately it's hard to put on a road event anymore, you know. So people kind of lost interest, basically just because of the hard work getting permits and stuff.

Speaker 4: 50:04

Yeah, road cycling in our area has changed, even in the distracted people, in automobiles, you know, on trail systems and different types of bikes, you know gravel bikes providing kind of a similar road bike experience, but in more diverse terrain. So you know, but you're, you know like, even you look back at the Cascade, the classic Cascade, Classic Cascade. Why am I mispronouncing it? Cascade Cycling, Classic, Cascade Cycling Classic went on for what? From the early 80s all the way up until like five, six years ago.

Speaker 3: 50:51

So I was one of the starters of the Cascade Cycling Classic. I was a director for 10 years and at the time, you know, we put it on when we had the Criterion downtown bend. The stores loved it. Most of the stores were closed. It was a Sunday. Back in Bend, people closed on Sundays and so it was kind of this huge party that everyone loved. You know, when we first put on the race that went around San Iampas and McKenzie Pass, you know the state police loan. You know, a good friend of mine was a state policeman. Another good friend of mine was a Deschutes County sheriff, and so we had two police escorts for this race and when I went to get the permit the state guy said oh, you know, bikes are allowed on the roads, Just start early. That was it I mean. So, you know, when I quit being the director mainly it was because I just did it for so long- it's a lot of hard work, you know there's just more people.

Speaker 3: 52:01

Hard work, you know there's just more people. Yeah, you know, and it's. But on the same token, we've always been able to ride up Skyliners Okay, and then when they redid it they put on a nice shoulder and again. So what's interesting about the shoulder on Skyliners and the shoulder on Century Drive is they were going to make both of those shoulders narrower, and because of people involved at the time, so for the Century Drive it was the Forest Service they made them.

Speaker 3: 52:36

A guy named Bill Martin was the engineer for the Deschutes National Forest and that's a combination state highway forest project. He just said you know, there's going to be lots of cyclists. So that wider road, that part that goes basically from the end up to about Meisner, was a narrow road with no shoulder. And so in 1980, they widened. That was a narrow road with no shoulder. And so in 1980, they widened that and they made that shoulder wider for bikes because one person not because it was a policy and the same with Skyliner. They were going to make that and fortunately the county road guy was an avid cyclist and he said well, there's actually three different ways you can measure a shoulder. You can measure it from the edge of the road to the inside of the white line.

Speaker 3: 53:28

You can measure it from the center of the road to the middle of the white line or you can measure it from the edge of the road to the outside and they were going to do it to the outside. So if you think about that, that makes that shoulder substantially narrower.

Speaker 3: 53:45

And he said, no, the shoulder's going to be that wide. And so my point about Skyliners is we could ride that when I moved to Bent. You can ride it today, and people do, and it's an awesome option for people to ride a nice easy road, ride little hills into the mountains. On the other hand, you can also ride your mountain bike on Ben's trail and Phil's network and go to the same place. So if it wasn't for that, you'd have three times the people riding their road bikes. But nowadays, because there's so many options, there's a lot, a lot of people that say, well, why, would I want to ride a road bike when I could ride a mountain bike, for sure I.

Speaker 4: 54:29

I look at cycling just as a whole and you look back over the different decades and there seems to be like like there was the 80s bmx thing, right, and then there was, like you know, the the 80s kind of rode by like that. Oh, what's that old movie with Kevin Costner, american Flyer?

Speaker 3: 54:44

Oh right. You're right, you know in a way yeah and like you know there was and then.

Speaker 4: 54:49

And then you kind of transition into those early 2000s where where cycling kind of became more Mainstream, I guess in a way with Lance Armstrong and his story and you know I mean there I mean there was pot like people tuned in and it seemed like bike. You know, cycling was getting more popular in ways, and then road cycling kind of has seems like died off. I walk into most bike shops anymore and, like you know, what used to be a pretty heavy road inventory seems pretty limited now. You know and and and it just. I guess, more than anything, you could say the same about BMX bikes.

Speaker 4: 55:32

Where where do you find a BMX bike? Now, you know, but people still ride them. You know, and I don't know. It's just that now we're, now we're kind of transitioning, for you know that seems like the last thing was was gravel bikes, and now there's, you know, the whole e-bike. You know evolution and and where's it going, and you know there's there's more and more just ways that people are using the same concept of two wheels and pedals. But is it changing from that?

Speaker 4: 55:58

You know as an e-bike, still a bike, I don't know. I guess sometimes, sometimes it's not.

Speaker 3: 56:06

You're not going to get me to comment on e-bikes?

Speaker 4: 56:08

Yeah, I am, you can comment all you want.

Speaker 3: 56:14

I'm keeping this a positive podcast.

Speaker 4: 56:17

Talk more about what's going on with the bike industry. I don't know.

Speaker 3: 56:22

It started with the bike industry. I don't know it started with. Covid yeah.

Speaker 4: 56:35

And so when.

Speaker 3: 56:35

COVID started.

Speaker 4: 56:36

People like you know, like you decide what am I going to do with some spare time? I start a podcast. They start mountain biking. Well, you know something. Who knows what's going to?

Speaker 3: 56:41

happen. So I actually said well, you should just lay me off at Sunnyside, because we didn't know what was going to happen. Are they going to close the stores? You know they closed some stores. Well, bike stores were considered like hardware stores, essential. So, we didn't know that, like hardware stores, essential, so we didn't know that. So I basically took a year off work because of you know, covid. But when I went back to work, trek does this yearly thing called Trek World and they were basically talking about this is the new paradigm.

Speaker 2: 57:26

This is because we were selling every freaking bike we could get.

Speaker 3: 57:28

Yeah, you know every. You couldn't get enough bikes and we I don't know if you would have walked into sunnyside like the march after covid started. I think we had five bikes on them.

Speaker 4: 57:39

Yeah, well, I bought, well, I bought my Huckaloogie. What is it? Right In the middle of that, yeah, and there was like a three-month wait, right, yeah, I built that, yeah, I remember, in my garage, of all things.

Speaker 3: 57:57

And so all these companies bought zillions of bikes and they order. So you pre-order all this stuff and there's too many bikes on them. So all of a sudden, everyone has to put their bikes on sale and they're not making money. And so it went from this—I think Ibis had its best year the year you bought your Hawkeye, and then last year they put their bikes on sale and you can't afford to sell these bikes at the prices. So I don't know what's gonna happen, but almost everything Every bike is on sale in the world.

Speaker 3: 58:45

I mean, the two biggest online retailers in Great Britain went bankrupt, wow, and they had a huge backing of money. You know, shimano had its worst profit year in 20 years, or something. So, believe me, the e-bike thing, they're just trying to sell something, and you know. So, believe me, the e-bike thing is, it's just, they're just trying to sell something.

Speaker 4: 59:11

Yeah, that makes sense, you know.

Speaker 3: 59:13

And it's their industry and they have to do the best they can. Yeah, but I find it. I find it short-sighted.

Speaker 4: 59:21

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 59:24

So I commute to Sunnyside. Last two weeks ago I drove to work for the first time in 40 years where I was working a full day. It was a really glowy, blizzardy day.

Speaker 4: 59:40

The first time in 40 years.

Speaker 3: 59:42

I ride my bike every day.

Speaker 4: 59:43

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 59:44

Okay. I have. Now that doesn't mean that if I work three hours or they need me to come in and I'm in the car, yeah, I got you. Your first full day of work. But if I'm working full day, I actually drove because it was a really snowy, blizzardy day and I just didn't feel like you know, and I just didn't feel like you know. That being said, it takes me eight minutes to drive my bike to work. If I got an e-bike it would take me seven minutes and ten seconds.

Speaker 3: 1:00:19

Okay, so I don't need an e-bike. I admit that, so you know if I lived out of town my favorite. Did you ever read anything by the bike snob? No, he's a New York guy. Okay. Super funny guy you should look it up. Yeah, I will, and I think he might even do podcasts, Probably. Anyway, so the bike snob, he's a super guy. Someone asked him.

Speaker 2: 1:00:43

This is like in the when did we have that last gas crunch 2007 or 8 or?

Speaker 3: 1:00:46

something. So they just said so, bike snob, what do I do to get my bike ready to commute to work? He goes, ride it to work. It's that simple. It's simple Ride your bike to work and it's a commute bike. And this is somewhat unrelated, but Norway probably has the best promotion of e-cars of any country in the world. However, they totally messed up their public transportation because of it. They spent all their money subsidizing purchases of e-cars and their public transportation, if you compare it to Sweden or Finland, has just gone to the wayside and really you know that's not a success. Public transportation is the answer. How often do you snowboard? Still?

Speaker 4: 1:01:51

Regularly.

Speaker 3: 1:01:52

Right the last three days. Wouldn't it be nice if there was a train up there? You just hop on the train. You don't get behind the bus that's stuck in the middle of the road. You don't get stuck behind the pickup truck, the idiot driver, you don't. You know, as I told someone the other day I said look, bachelor was developed in the early 60s and there was a two-lane road that went there. 10,000 people lived in town.

Speaker 3: 1:02:21

Now we have 200,000 people and it's still a two-lane road and public transportation is the answer. Whether you're driving a Tesla to the bathroom or not doesn't help anybody. You're not the idiot that rides your bike up there. Did you ever see that guy?

Speaker 4: 1:02:37

Yeah, the e-bike guy. Yeah, I think it's. Maybe you know him, I don't know him. I think it's an interesting, I think it's just interesting. I think it's an interesting, I think it's just interesting. You know, I mean to each their own.

Speaker 3: 1:02:48

I get it, but I also I don't get when he's riding on the wrong side of the road. Yeah, going up in a blizzard. I just I go up early and I'm driving up and I'm following like this sprinter van right and after the sprinter van goes by this big cloud of smoke and then I see this weird thing on the side and it's this guy on a bike and he has a little blinking light and it's like you know you're not safe what if I hit you?

Speaker 3: 1:03:20

yeah, who would actually feel worse? You'd be dead and I'd be devastated. Yeah, you know. Anyway, I find the whole commute thing it's like just make it cheap. You know, you don't. You know, when I worked for the Forest Service I rode this $25 single speed to work Totally, and now I have a lot of bikes. I just ride one of the bikes I own. Yeah, and I don't see that I need a $6,000 electric bike.

Speaker 4: 1:03:58

Yeah, I mean the cost of materials and manufacturing must be really high for the price tag on some of these bikes. Man, I mean you referenced that first. So what do you think? That first Trek retailed for Under $1,000, huh, oh, you mean like that first Trek?

Speaker 3: 1:04:18

mountain bike that I had.

Speaker 4: 1:04:20

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:04:21

So they made their first Trek mountain bike was called a Trek 850. And I think they were about 400. Yeah and um trek at that time were all made in the united states, so it was a little more. You know, we had pujos at the time. They were made in taiwan or whatever and they were under, I think, 299 or something like that, um you know and and you know.

Speaker 3: 1:04:53

You know. What's interesting, though, is if you buy, if I buy the, if I could buy the cheapest trek, that I sell mountain bike and give it. To go back in time and give it to myself in 1990 and say, don, you're going to race world's on this bike, I would think I had the coolest bike ever. And those bikes aren't that expensive compared to what we rode back then and what they have, you know, hydraulic disc brakes, dropper seat posts, I mean just better sized wheels. You know, so it is if you actually are looking at not just technology and the best. If you're just looking at the same level of bike, I mean they shift better.

Speaker 4: 1:05:45

Totally the fork.

Speaker 3: 1:05:46

I didn't even have a fork in my oh, I got a RockShox from the RockShox guy at World's. But the fork on a Marlin 5 is a better fork than that original RockShox. So in a sense you don't need to buy a real expensive bike to have a better bike than what we rode. Absolutely, I think about that all the time, you know. I mean I'm glad I have a better bike, but on the other hand it's pretty amazing what you can actually buy, yeah and stuff.

Speaker 4: 1:06:18

But anyway, I don't know what does mountain biking in Central Oregon look like in 20 years.

Speaker 3: 1:06:28

I'll be 93. Yeah, I'll probably be walking more than riding.

Speaker 4: 1:06:35

Or you'll be riding a new e-bike. Never, never say never, bro. Yes, I can.

Speaker 3: 1:06:43

Okay, so I'm an avid cross-country skier, right? Okay so I'm an avid cross-country skier, right, and way more elderly people cross-country ski than mountain bike. I mean, there's no—if I showed you photos, videos of some of the people I see every day skiing, you would go whoa, that's impressive, and I'll guarantee you not one of them would ever say they want some kind of assistance.

Speaker 6: 1:07:13

Yeah yeah, I don't disagree with you, I don't even think I can say never.

Speaker 3: 1:07:16

Yeah, I know.

Speaker 4: 1:07:17

I don't even think that the argument of, hey, e-bikes allow people to get out there more, I don't think that's true.

Speaker 3: 1:07:25

I think Well we had that argument in the 60s, when we made wilderness. Yeah, when. I was 14 years old, I used to go to hearings, for basically, we wanted to have the Wilderness Act, and the biggest argument against the Wilderness Act was for old people to have access. And so by not allowing motorcycles to go up to Green Lakes so that some old guy like me could look at the lake, well, when I can't get to Green Lakes, I'll walk around Muir Pond.

Speaker 3: 1:07:54

I mean, I don't—just because the technology's there doesn't mean that it's real yeah, just because you can doesn't mean you should, and I think, fortunately, you know, when you see all these cross-country skiers, I just know there's also a component, like me, of people who this will never happen, you know, and so we'll stick together and maybe we'll be the minority, but we'll know we'll be happy with what we're doing.

Speaker 3: 1:08:23

I would say in 20 years I'm going to say there will be trails that are allowed for e-bikes. I know that I think there may have been an evolution of where some of the e-bike trails they reduce the number because I think there'll be issues. I think, as some of us, when we go riding you just see other people sharing our trails. I think with e-bikes that will become less possible. You know the horse people, the equestrians, they're not necessarily against e-bikes but they just say well, what's going to happen on the Metolius-Wendigo Trail and stuff like that.

Speaker 3: 1:09:19

So I think things will settle down to where see as many new trails in the Bend area, because I think the Forest Service recognizes that trails affect wildlife and all of a sudden there's no wildlife corridors left. You know, if you just keep building trail after trail after trail and mountain bikes are fast and they're not really wildlife friendly. So I don't really see how there could be a lot more trails in the Bend area. I think Horse Ridge will have been developed. I think people will finally start using some of the trails that I ride that are outlying trails. There's some really fun trails that aren't that far away, that you know, the Ochocos down by Maiden Peak, the Cascadia trails will probably be more used for good or for bad, but I don't see huge, huge changes in terms of trails, just some of the areas developed a little more.

Speaker 4: 1:10:46

Do you guys have more customers coming in the store that want bikes specific for Bachelor, like downhill, more enduro type stuff?

Speaker 3: 1:10:59

I think when Bachelor first opened, there was this sense that we were going to sell downhill bikes and downhill helmets, and I don't think that ever really happened. I think what's interesting is, first of all, there's really only one trail at Bachelor that you probably should have a downhill bike on. And even that trail, Mike and stuff ride with their big travel enduro bikes. Yeah, mike, and stuff, ride with their you know their big travel enduro bikes. So I don't think, I don't know if that's going to happen at.

Speaker 3: 1:11:32

Bachelor if they're really going to get more. You know more technical trails. You know. The first time I went to Bachelor I showed up on my Trek 29er Remedy and I was a little nervous. And this guy comes oh no, you're going to need a downhill bike. So I rode the trail that they had and I'm thinking these are just like a long version of Titor's Traverse. Yeah, you know yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:12:00

I mean it's like I think, did you ride up there? I never. I'm not interested in it for some reason. There's some fun trails up there. I never did you ride up there.

Speaker 4: 1:12:07

I never. I'm not interested in it for some reason.

Speaker 3: 1:12:09

There's some fun trails up there. I never yeah, and I just I've had. They give me a really good deal on a season pass. I had a season pass a couple years. It's kind of fun. What I tell people about Bachelor is if you could do Tyler's Traverse like five times, you'd get pretty good at it. Yeah, and you'd kind of get the feel for it. Yeah, you snowboard, you know if you had to walk up, oh, I get it, I get the draw.

Speaker 4: 1:12:44

I mean you get the reps and the you know, but I've, I it's, it's kind of like at this point in my life, like I, there's more to it than just the descent. Like I, I find as much enjoyment and value in the challenge of of the climb climb. No, I totally agree. And I don't know if that's just my personality or, but you know, I just. I mean, it's like I was never that into shuttling Like I don't really want to shuttle whoops.

Speaker 3: 1:13:15

you know I'm just, you know, I'd rather ride up there. Well, there's a couple of dumb shuttles. I could go on there, but basically, but there's not everybody as good as you are descending. Well, I understand that. So if I had someone who was kind of good but just wanted to get a little better, they should go to Bachelor and just learn how to do it without being wasted. And then, because if you could do the law, there's a trail called Lava Run, which is basically Tizer's Traverse, only four miles long, and you can do it like four times. And so by the time you've done it four times, you actually know how to ride a bike. And so to me that's the positive part Makes sense. But you know again, if you could imagine trying to learn, I mean teaching someone how to snowboard, but they couldn't take a lift.

Speaker 4: 1:14:08

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:14:08

How long would it? Would it take you like five years to teach?

Speaker 4: 1:14:12

them. Yeah, I mean.

Speaker 3: 1:14:14

But you can see what I'm talking about. I absolutely can, on the other hand. So you think about shuttling. So you know, you go to the bottom of Tyler's and you see people who shuttle Tyler's and I can actually ride tilers up and down and it takes me probably 10 minutes longer than the shuttlers. So what's the point? The whoops is the same thing. It takes 45 minutes to ride from the Green Gate to the top of the Fun Whoops. You don't have to go all the way to the parking lot. Why would you?

Speaker 3: 1:14:49

So you just go up to where it crosses that road and you get to do those little rock gardens and shit. Maybe it takes 50 minutes. How long does it take to shuttle?

Speaker 3: 1:15:05

I mean you know, lev's a pretty good friend of mine and you talked to Lev about the shuttle thing and he's pretty sure that they do about 10% of the shuttling and the rest is self-shuttled. Yeah, and I mean I've shuttled with Lev and it's kind of fun. You know I've shuttled with Lev and it's kind of fun. You know he'll take me up to you know Bachelor and you ride down and it's a good. You get to do some long and it's not easy you know, yeah even descents in Central Oregon have climbing.

Speaker 4: 1:15:44

It is you know.

Speaker 3: 1:15:45

But you know self-shutt-shuttling it's like, okay, I drive up there, someone drives me up there, and then I got. You know, it just becomes as complicated it's mckinsey river trail. I could shuttling years ago. I just ride down to the fun part and turn around and ride back and don't ride the last section, which which is kind of whatever, and it takes five minutes longer to ride back up than it does to ride down.

Speaker 4: 1:16:11

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:16:12

Because it's not much of an ascent, so I'm with you on the shuttle, yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:16:19

Any thoughts for people who are new to Central Oregon, new to Central Oregon, newer to mountain biking in central oregon, uh, any kind of words of encouragement, references other than coda? You know I mean always, I always encourage people to either become, at the very least become a member if you, if you utilize the trails. But you know, I mean I, when I got together with immy a while back, you know it was like basic etiquette. You know I mean it's surprising how many people you know on the trails don't realize that climbers have the right away right I mean, and then when you go cross-country skier downhillers have the right-of-way. And so it's confusing. It is confusing.

Speaker 3: 1:17:07

Because I do both sports. I know you'd think I'd know, but it is for me this weird thing. Wait a minute. I'm cross-country skiing. I'm going downhill, I have the right-of-way. I give the right-of-way to everybody, yeah that's true.

Speaker 3: 1:17:23

Because I'm fairly skilled. If I'm going downhill, if I'm so out of control that someone has to get out of my way, I'm out of control. That's not right. So you know, as I told someone back in the day when we first started riding, who cared about the right-of-way If you saw someone, you knew them, and you stopped and talked. You know, oh, hey, Paul, I haven't seen you for a year how you doing. You know, nowadays it's like people by having this right-of-way thing, it's a full. It's my right.

Speaker 3: 1:17:55

That's true, and I really find that a little disquieting. I mean, when was that incident where that guy hit this woman on South Fork? Do you remember that A?

Speaker 4: 1:18:07

couple years ago.

Speaker 3: 1:18:08

Yeah, yeah, I do remember this Well there's a sign at the bottom of South Fork that basically says if you ride up this, you're an idiot, even though you have the right-of-way. You have the right-of-way but you're still an idiot, yeah, and I mean I ride South Fork a lot because I do this weird little workout thing where I go up to Tumalo Ridge and I do that little secret the hard one, yeah, and then I ride. You know it's like, again, it's a hard workout and I get to ride South Fork. What could be better? Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:18:39

And the trail's so steep that if you're pedaling you're going hard, right, so you don't even have to think about going hard. So but I ride South Fork all the time. How many times have I seen people going up? Maybe if I ride it 20 times a year once. So why should I give right away? I find the whole thing, it's this weird.

Speaker 3: 1:19:03

American thing that people have to think that someone has. I always get the right of way. I don't care if I'm going up or down. I'm wearing a Sunnyside sports jersey. I don't want someone to think I'm a hole. I just want you know I get out of the way. If I'm going up, I get out of the way. Oh.

Speaker 3: 1:19:24

I'm resting, Whatever you know. So I do appreciate the etiquette. What I would tell someone who moved to Central Oregon and wants to ride a mountain bike is one don't get over your head. I think that find the trails that you're comfortable with, and find the trails that you're comfortable with. Don't take our trail descriptions. If you're in Idaho or Canada and it says Phil's a black diamond, no, that's 10 feet of Phil's. They don't mean that Phil's is a black diamond. The guy that made the map decided that that little rock thing is a black diamond and the rest of the trail is blue. I think that's what people get. I've seen people who are going the wrong way because they wanted to bypass the black diamond and it's like well, it's not a black diamond.

Speaker 3: 1:20:26

To me that's beginning over your head is probably. You know, if you're a beginner, do some of the shorter loops, you know. I would totally tell people get over the. Carry a map, go buy yourself a map. The trail fork thing isn't going to help you unless you know the trails. You know. I mean, I have trail forks, I use it all the time. But a map is helpful If you're an experienced rider and you love riding steep stuff. Get out of the bend area. It's about an hour drive to ride Crescent Mountain, one of the best descents around. It's an hour 20 to the Ochicos. So try some of those trails. They're super fun, not that far and believe me, they're never crowded.

Speaker 4: 1:21:26

Yeah, I want to spend more time in the Ochoa Coast. Man, I haven't had the chance of getting out there and riding. I wanted to play just because I have it and Mike Ripley is a big fan of yours.

Speaker 7: 1:21:44

Well same thing with Don Leet. Don Leet unapologetically told me how much he hated the mudslinger mountain bike race literally hated it. Shiny ass, wet trails, ben, people don't like that, you know. But he swore he would only come over until he won the damn thing. And that's what he did. And then he never came back, and that's what he did.

Speaker 1: 1:22:06

And then he never came back.

Speaker 4: 1:22:08

Let's talk a little bit about Don's history with mountain biking. Oh dude, it's like extensive.

Speaker 7: 1:22:13

I mean no one knows about the resort to resort rates for mountain biking Don does because he lived it like Sun River to Bend, you know. So I mean Dave Campbell is the one in the state that has all the results and has all the classic clippings. I keep on sending him more stuff too. He's on instagram his clips and straps it's like clips, understore straps, it's like a dave with.

Speaker 7: 1:22:38

Dave campbell is mostly a road cyclist but you know journal, you know just journaling, and he does my now super high cascades, and so he knows a lot of the overlap and some of the really strong historical riders that you know laced up their um, you know shoes to go and throw down, uh, competitively. So you know. So there's a lot of history with a lot of these people either coming to mudslinger back in the day or, like for don's case, all the races that were in mudslinger was 87, so the racing that started in the early 80s, that would be cool just to document the names of those events that happened, say you know, in the 80s time frame when mountain biking was first starting. Yeah, especially, especially in central Oregon, because you know, most people aren't aware of anything beyond. You know what's searchable by Google.

Speaker 1: 1:23:35

Right.

Speaker 7: 1:23:36

Really, that's the truth, right, unless you actually yeah. And I've always told the honor, told an Oregon cycling. A Wikipedia cycling page for Wikipedia would be kind of cool. You know what? What do you exclude, though? You know what do you put in?

Speaker 4: 1:23:50

Yeah, it's always a challenge. I just Mike has always such a good perspective on stuff. I think, um, he's, uh, I love his banter, I love his approach to stuff. Um, he's got he we. I did an episode with him a while back which is getting to hear his story, because, man, it's a funny one, but yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:24:16

Did he tell you when he lived in Bend? Briefly, yeah, he managed the pizza place.

Speaker 4: 1:24:22

I think they tore it down and put a car wash by Freddy's, because that's what he did over in the valley in Eugene and then he moved back.

Speaker 3: 1:24:30

I think his wife got a job back over there. So he moved back over there. But no. Mike's been a huge plus for us, you know, for racers, but even more because you know, sometimes, when you put a race on those areas, the trails actually become, you know, rideable, so you know. So racing is related to having better trails. And have you heard of the resort to resort?

Speaker 4: 1:25:11

race no.

Speaker 3: 1:25:12

So we started it at the inn. So they started this running race called resort to resort and it used to go from Sun River to the inn.

Speaker 4: 1:25:24

The inn at Seventh Mountain.

Speaker 3: 1:25:25

Yeah, yeah, Inn at Seventh Mountain, and they didn't even have that. You know the river trail. So, yes, you had to follow that old train road. You know that's closed now to cars, but that was the trail. And then and I decided, well, it'd be fun to put on a mountain bike race, so, but instead of having a point-to-point, we started at the end and basically we went up 41 a little bit and then that road where you hit Storm King, you know, just before the Storm King. So that road, before we'd take that road, and we'd climb up to the Kewa Road, which is close to where the Larson Trail is.

Speaker 3: 1:26:15

And then, basically, where is it? Dynamo Hum, dynamo Hum. Is that the one that's over there, right?

Speaker 4: 1:26:24

I think so yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:26:26

Yeah, so that road we'd go back down, kind of where Royal Flush goes, and then we'd cross and there used to be this old. In fact this trail still exists. It's a horse trail that the equestrian used and it's actually on some maps. The Forest Service vacated it when they built that roundabout trail. So there's an area where there's no trails on some maps. The Forest Service vacated it when they built that roundabout trail.

Speaker 3: 1:26:47

So, there's an area where there's no trails, but anyway. So we'd cross 41, hop on that trail and then you'd basically be. So if you ride roundabout clockwise just before you get to that bridge that crosses over to Sun River. It looks like it's been there forever, so that's what we used. We'd cross over to Sun River. It looks like it's been there forever, so that's what we used. We'd cross over the bridge there. We'd actually go through Sun River on some road that we had permission, and then we'd follow the railroad grade because they hadn't built that trail yet from Sun River to Benham, and then at Benham we would cross the bridge and then we'd actually go over Benham Butte and follow the power line and then back to the end. We did that for about five years, I think. Yeah, it's interesting. So one year. Marcel Rosenberger yeah, Okay. So Marcelberger yeah, Okay. So Marcel came to town.

Speaker 4: 1:27:50

You should share who Marcel is. So. Marcel came to town to race the Cascade Siding Classic he was a road racer, because he's a road racer from Europe, right, right.

Speaker 3: 1:27:57

And he actually finished fifth at Cyclocross Worlds 84 or 85, anyway. So you know he was fairly proficient. You know race the Tour de France, the Giro of Volta, you know big time. But he came to Ben, did some bike racing and did the Cascade and then he really liked Ben so he kind of was hanging out here and that year he was Paul Thomas Bergenhammer racing and he just followed Paul the whole time and then beat him in the sprint. Paul was quite pissed off because he wasn't really a roadie. Marcel's story was that he'd never been here before.

Speaker 3: 1:28:41

He didn't know where the road, he didn't have a clue where the race was. He just wanted to follow someone that knew he didn't have a clue where the race was. He just wanted to follow someone that knew.

Speaker 4: 1:28:53

So it was kind of like your Euro roadie beating your young buck, mountain bike dude, yeah, up and comer yeah. But it was a good time. Do you feel like there's still the number of races that there used to be here?

Speaker 3: 1:29:04

No. Yeah, I don't either, no of races that there used to be here. No, yeah, I don't either. No, I mean, basically, there used to be this rule that to be a bike club in good what's the word good standing, you had to put on a bike race. So Hutch's put on a race, we put on a race, century put on their race. So every bike store was putting on a bike race. You know, when I retired from Sunnyside, I also retired from putting on bike races. So, that's why Pickett's Charge stopped.

Speaker 7: 1:29:42

Nobody really wanted to do it.

Speaker 3: 1:29:46

And I'd rather be retired than do it.

Speaker 4: 1:29:49

Well, it's a lot of work. It is a lot of work. I talked to Mike and I mean he just hustles man, putting on all these events. Oh yeah, but he does it for a living. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:29:57

And he actually makes a living and I respect him for that and he puts on phenomenal events. Yeah, you always enjoy a Mike. Oh yeah, but you know there's not. Even if it wasn't for Mike, I don't think there'd be an event. I know.

Speaker 4: 1:30:13

That's how valuable he is, the role he plays.

Speaker 3: 1:30:15

Yeah, you know, I think so. I guess they still have the chain breaker.

Speaker 4: 1:30:21

Do they, don't they? I don't know. I haven't raced that in five, six years, seven years, maybe not, maybe they don't they? I don't know. I haven't raced that in five, six years, seven years, maybe not, maybe they don't have a chain breaker.

Speaker 3: 1:30:29

Yeah, well, you know. So if there's a local race, I know they have the Sisters Stampede. Yeah, that's a fact. Yeah, and Mike took that over.

Speaker 2: 1:30:36

Yeah, and that's the only reason it exists and it's sold out already.

Speaker 3: 1:30:42

Yeah, then he puts on his 24-hour race and he puts on his 100-mile race and then he started his 50-mile race and all the other outside area gravel races.

Speaker 4: 1:30:53

Yeah, I mean, I'm talking about Central Oregon, right, right, right.

Speaker 3: 1:30:55

So basically every race that I know of in Central Oregon.

Speaker 4: 1:30:59

A guy from Corvallis puts on, I know, and he does a hell of a job.

Speaker 3: 1:31:03

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:31:04

Yeah, anything, we didn't talk about that you want to talk about.

Speaker 3: 1:31:09

You know, I guess the other thing you were asking about telling people and you know, joining COTA is an important thing.

Speaker 3: 1:31:18

So COTA is Central Oregon Trail Association, but more important is figuring out a way to to give back yourself to make sure that we have trails. It's a very unusual situation in terms of recreation, in terms of mountain bike, as opposed to other recreation opportunities on the Forest Service. So the Forest Service basically maintains all the trails that you hike in in the wilderness. That doesn't mean there aren't volunteer organizations that help, but it's mainly a Forest Service-powered thing. Mountain Bike Trails are basically built and maintained by an organization called COTA and there are four or five paid employees of CODA. I can't keep track. They got a grant.

Speaker 3: 1:32:11

So, josh, and anyway, so find a way that you can, you know help. You know, my thing is I clear trails with my chainsaw and I find it entertaining and it's fun, but it's hard work. So if you ever you know, a good way to figure out what's happening is there's a Facebook page called Bend Trails and to me that's the most informative information about what's happening and if we need help to clear trails, we'll actually post a thing on that Bend Trails thing most informative information about what's happening. And if we need help to clear trails, we'll actually post a thing on that Ben Trails thing. Anybody want to come help. If you ever see that, just volunteer. It's quite fun, you'll meet some new people and you know it's a way to you know help maintain our trails, because if the volunteers weren't there, they wouldn't be there period.

Speaker 4: 1:33:13

Well, thanks, don. I mean thanks for doing this, but also just the 40-plus years of community involvement and being a representative of cycling man.

Speaker 3: 1:33:26

I mean you know.

Speaker 4: 1:33:29

It's a lifetime and it's awesome.

Speaker 3: 1:33:32

It is Thank you, I love it.

Speaker 4: 1:33:34

I know you do.

Speaker 4: 1:33:56

Thank you, hey. Thanks for listening to Ben Magazine's the Circling Podcast. Make sure to visit benmagazinecom and learn about all the outdoor adventures in our area, as well as upcoming featured community events, local artist profiles, our dining guide and more. Our theme song was written by Carl Perkins and performed by Aaron Colbaker and Aaron Zerflu of the Aarons, and we love mail, so please send us comments, questions or art to thecirclingpodcast at benmagazinecom. Support the Circling Podcast by becoming a member on Patreon at patreoncom. Forward slash thecirclingpodcast and learn how your financial contribution will help support local nonprofits while also supporting local podcasting nonprofits while also supporting local podcasting. Follow us on Instagram at the circling podcast to learn more about past, current and upcoming episodes. Please subscribe to the circling podcast on all major podcast platforms and leave us a review. It really does help.

Speaker 4: 1:35:01

I'd like to say a special thank you to all of those who participated in the making of this episode, as it wouldn't be the same without your contribution, and I appreciate your trust. Visit Don and all the fine folks at Sunnyside Sports on Newport Avenue for all your cycling and Nordic skiing needs. Their doors are open daily from 9 to 6. Don't forget to stay tuned after the show. Credits for Don's contribution to the Circling Podcast Community Art Project and visit markjamnettcom to learn more about subliminal story art embedded with meaning. Lastly, if you know someone who you think would enjoy today's episode, please share it with them today. Hey, thanks for your time. Central Oregon, get outside. We'll see you out there. And remember the health of our community relies on us.

Speaker 5: 1:35:56

So for us, living in Bend has not just been taking but also giving. You know we feel like making Bend a better place to live, a more fun place to live, both, you know, in terms of bicycling and outdoor sports. But you know we were a big supporter when I was the owner of the Central Oregon Symphony.

Speaker 5: 1:36:28

the beauty of bands is that you can do almost anything and feel like you have art, you have music, and then you can go skiing or ride your bike or run or kayak or whatever. So, yes, there's too many people, because they like it as much as I do. What can you say?