Speaker 1: 0:38

During COVID whatever the hardcore year was that summer I had, I don't know multiple people break down in tears during the interaction. It would be a single mom with her kid, who might not be the traditional baseball or football kid or basketball kid, and she just wants to get the kid outside and she drives up to the lake. It's her time, she finally has some time. You know she's working hard, trying to make ends meet. She goes up to the river or the lake and her fin is missing.

Speaker 1: 1:27

Comes to our shop and you know you can tell she's on edge and she just needs a fin. You know that edge and she just needs a fin. You know that's it. She just needs a fin. You show her how to put the fin on. You sell her a fin or maybe give it away, you know, and you just break down in tears. You know because your kid's in the car and you know they just want to get. They have this window. They want to make their outdoor experience happen because she knows it's important. That to me is kind of the most important thing that I do.

Speaker 2: 2:15

I remember when I was a bat, times were hard and things were bad. There's a silver lining behind every cloud. Just four people, that's all we were Trying to make a living out of Blacklander. We'd be together in a family circle singing loud.

Speaker 3: 2:34

I once read that every season of life sings its own song, but it's up to us to learn the lyrics. On episode 57 of Ben Magazine's the Circling Podcast. Join me as I have the privilege of sitting down with Rob McDonald, husband, father and co-owner of Stand on Liquid Paddleboards and Latitude 44 Sports. And co-owner of Stand on Liquid Paddleboards and Latitude 44 Sports. Rob shares chapters from his life where opportunity, hard work and a rare level of humility transformed an underachieving kid from Washington into a self-confident leader, ultimately leading him into leadership roles during the early days of Amazon and eventually getting recruited to Apple, where he served as the head of Apple Books.

Speaker 3: 3:18

After almost a decade of commuting from Central Oregon to the Bay Area for work, in 2018, rob took advantage of another opportunity that presented itself by getting involved with local small business Stand on Liquid, allowing him to establish a full-time presence in Bend and, more importantly, spend more time with his wife and family. Currently, rob and his partners are on the verge of breaking ground on a new venture, the Skyliner Club. Located just east of Phil's Trailhead on Northwest Skyliners Road and scheduled to open in the spring of 2026, the Skyliner Club is expected to be Oregon's premier health fitness and wellness club with a unique focus on community and a value on social gatherings. Yo, rob, thanks for sitting down in the studio, man, I had a blast and learned a ton. I recently came upon this old Russian proverb and it reminded me of you A bird can rest peacefully on a branch not because it is confident in the branch, but because it is confident in its ability to fly. Be well, my man.

Speaker 3: 4:31

The Circling Podcast can be found on Patreon. Visit our page and learn how a percentage of your financial support will help support local nonprofits and the continued growth of local community podcasting. Become a member and learn about this unique opportunity at patreoncom. Forward slash the circling podcast. Well, it doesn't go unnoticed to me that you chose to be here on a sunny Friday afternoon in May, when it stays light out to almost nine o'clock, so thanks for being here.

Speaker 4: 5:11

Yeah, it's great to be here, it's fun, yeah.

Speaker 3: 5:13

What would you otherwise be doing?

Speaker 1: 5:17

You work today, I work today. My wife and I last couple years have been well, we just make, we make dinner, which sounds ordinary. But what makes it interesting, I think, is that pretty much every night we come up with a new recipe. Whoa, my wife's a really good cook and I've learned to like cooking and it's just become a cool thing Like and you know, we certainly went through years of having three or four of the same meals all the time, you know.

Speaker 3: 5:50

Yeah, I do know I might be in those years. Yeah, Understandable.

Speaker 1: 5:54

It's hard not to be but be. But we both love food and she's a great cook and I really like the process, and so usually we get home and there's a new recipe, or one of us has to go to the store and we just create food. And then you know, we have two girls at home, one off at college, so the two will come and eat and hopefully we make enough for lunch. This is probably boring as hell to all your listeners?

Speaker 3: 6:20

Not at all. No, but it's real. I'm not asking for the listeners. This is interesting to know. I'm taking mental notes right now because I keep thinking that seems like an amazing way to kind of connect in a new way with your spouse.

Speaker 1: 6:34

That's probably most of it. Yeah, partly that and partly that. Um, she really raised the kids for years and was traveling so much and, uh, I definitely came back needing to kind of help and she was pretty fatigued with all the housework she had to do over the years. Essentially she was a single mom and at first started I usually take Mondays off and at first I started making soups. That was kind of my thing and then I started to expand because the kids were getting a little burned out on soup and it doesn't work so well in the summer. So now we have a few different apps and lots of cookbooks and just kind of it's a bonding thing for sure for my wife and I, and you know we have two in high school, so we're thinking of the future and when we'll be empty nesters and it's been really good for us.

Speaker 3: 7:26

I'm sure your wife is a phenomenal cook. Where'd she?

Speaker 1: 7:30

learn. Well, she was a pastry chef, after you know, so she kind of learned just the discipline of it, yeah, but she kind of just early on cared about the food we were feeding our family and just picking the right ingredients. But we love going out too, for sure, but it has gotten crazy expensive, dude, it's way too expensive. Yeah, the numbers don't quite work. No, no, especially for has gotten crazy expensive Dude it's way too, expensive. Yeah, like the numbers don't quite work. No, especially for a family of two. Well five, yeah for sure.

Speaker 3: 8:03

But yeah, five is crazy yeah.

Speaker 1: 8:05

So you know we make, and I know this is bragging, but I'll brag for my wife anytime. I mean, she just makes restaurant quality food.

Speaker 4: 8:11

Yeah, almost every night.

Speaker 1: 8:13

Yeah, and it's good.

Speaker 3: 8:17

That's awesome. Where should we begin with your story, my man? Cause it's a great one and I've I, it's been really fun for me to get to know you from a distance and talk with friends of yours and and, uh, just learn more about kind of your story. And you know, I mean I was I. So I like asking people with cool stories where they would like to start.

Speaker 1: 8:40

Uh well, thanks for asking. I'm flattered.

Speaker 3: 8:43

First of all, get that mic closer. It's too far away, all right, and you can move it like this too Cool.

Speaker 1: 8:49

Yeah, Um, not planned answer at all, but I I guess I'd break my life up in three parts.

Speaker 3: 8:57

One is that's what I have Okay. Now I'm curious to see how much we think alike.

Speaker 1: 9:03

All right, all right, you know, part one is pre-believing in myself and just kind of this is strange, but just doing underachieving, kind of intentionally underachieving, we can maybe talk about that. And then part two was like realizing I had some skills, you know, to offer the world. Yeah, and then part three was is now and just trying to like I've kind of left the corporate world and trying to make a living being an entrepreneur.

Speaker 3: 9:37

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 9:38

So I guess I'd break it up and break it up like that, so you know where to start.

Speaker 3: 9:43

Well, that's similar to what I had. I mean, I I kind of like getting to know your story. I I kind of I broke it up into, you know, kind of your, your childhood, college days, into your kind of early kind of transition into professionalism and then kind of this transition out of professional corporate life into central Oregon and then this kind of future project that I want to talk to you about, that you're working on, and and I would say that each one of those kind of lessons or areas of growth that you just talked about in terms of kind of your relationship with gaining confidence, probably is kind of this stepwise approach through those different times. Man, that's that's kind of what I saw when I read about this. You know, it was like getting to know people. When I read about this, you know, it was like getting to know people.

Speaker 3: 10:39

This humility doesn't like talking about himself and yet like his really, you know, didn't go to an Ivy league school and yet was like kind of competing with and in that culture and just all of that. I can relate with that. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 10:50

Yeah, totally yeah. I mean, you're perceptive.

Speaker 3: 10:53

Yeah so thank you.

Speaker 1: 10:54

Yeah, totally you know I. I was a smart kid when I was young, yeah, In the sense that I read a ton. Yeah, and I realize now with hindsight I was so bored in school, so bored, and never did homework I mean maybe a couple times, and I would have whatever book I was reading, you know, behind the textbook because, I just could care

Speaker 1: 11:22

less about biology, you know, totally nerd for sure, and you know, and I kind of didn't have a ton of success athletically, which means a lot in high school, and so I would go to the library and read, you know, ray Bradbury. And then I got cut, officially got cut. I realized I definitely wasn't cut out for like baseball or soccer, though I was young for my grade. That's one excuse. But regardless, I it was, for whatever reason, and I'm not proud of it. But I thought it was cool to not try and to underachieve, and so I did, and every once in a while I'd write something in a class or I'd say something.

Speaker 1: 12:06

I remember an English teacher, miss Condon, said Rob, why don't you apply yourself that kind of thing and fast forward to college? I was an English major, I like books and um was in a kind of a higher level essay writing class and um did really well. You know I had a teacher that said you know, you know, you're, you're, you're good, you know, keep going. Ended up working in the writing lab at Washington state university.

Speaker 1: 12:37

So I had at least a skill you know, and as a guy that, like I think I, I think I covered up um, you know, you, you can disappear in high school if you don't like, if you're not good at something you know. Super true, yeah. But then you have you realize, oh, you know, it's good to be recognized for something, that feels good to be good at something, and so, um, eventually I kind of launched out of that into well, with a break in, eventually I ended up at Amazon where I was with all these Ivy League kids who all I was like the last book editor they hired and I guarantee they all had, they all got 20 times more stock options than I did.

Speaker 1: 13:27

I had barely nothing because they knew they were confident and they knew how to negotiate, but eventually I worked them and was better at what we were supposed to do than they were. And you know that was kind of the beginning of um. You know I have some skills and and it's better to apply myself and so, um, you know I'm definitely fast forwarding here. But I had.

Speaker 1: 13:51

I had a chip on my shoulder, cause I realized that well, that I was kind of overlooked and underestimated and you know, I had some things I should do to make the world a better place.

Speaker 3: 14:08

That's not an uncommon story amongst people who excel in their given field.

Speaker 1: 14:14

Yeah, yeah, man, and you know, the confidence thing is like.

Speaker 3: 14:17

Well, there's a different type of confidence. I think that comes with just kind of the wisdom gained through life, right, like I mean, you don't know what you don't know and the worst thing that's ever happened to you is the worst thing that's ever happened to you and for at least me. I look back and you know, like 45 years old, like I've been through some challenging things which allow you kind of to look back and learn from the past, to give you a little bit more encouragement moving forward. That I think is hopefully more of a just natural consequence of getting older. And then there's confidence that's more contextual, I think, like within certain areas of business or sports, or you know what I mean.

Speaker 1: 15:01

Absolutely, and that that was the you know, being in a room a table full of.

Speaker 1: 15:08

Ivy leaguers and they are so confident, they present so well, they know how to argue with, like, the Socratic method. You know, and I was like, oh, you know I'm not cut out for this, um, but then you know when you actually go do the work that's where I could, I could do it and and um, and then eventually, having achieved some things in the business world, you know, when you launch, when you manage um, at one point I managed the book business at, at Apple audio books and eBooks and, um, I don't think I'm I'm still don't think I'm supposed to tell you how big of a business it was, but, um, you know, north of uh, or or just South of a billion dollars. You know, when you, when you manage a business like that um, you realize, um, the importance of what you're doing and like uh, and that if you screw up, you're dead. And if you, um, and at the same time, you know if you're delivering those kinds of results, um, you have, you're obviously doing something right. Yeah, and you were.

Speaker 3: 16:52

Yeah, I love that. So you know that I like to involve others in these projects and episodes. Because you caught me the other day when I called Latitude 44, trying to get in touch with Q, oh yeah, and that was awesome. But I did get in touch with your childhood buddy, scott, and I thought that his comments would be kind of a good segue. The audio quality is not great because he was in Hawaii doing his architecture thing. It's not the best audio quality, but it works.

Speaker 5: 17:23

We both played like Little League Baseball somewhere and I think I was playing second base and took me out sliding into second base. I didn't know him, he was probably like in my science class or something at the time and I think I congratulated him on a hard, aggressive play or something like that when we were little kids. And literally like maybe six months later he moved into my neighborhood and like on the way home from the bus he kind of just told me we were going to be friends and we've been friends ever since. Like you know, we spent a summer together in ketchum, idaho, like camping, you know, camping in the national forest, like on campsites and then doing. He was doing a landscape job during the day and I was doing a construction job during the day and we bartenders and we and we had a bartending and waiter job at a little mexican place in ketchum at night. So it kind of helped us pay for our last year of college and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 5: 18:23

And he's just always been scrappy like that, like we're sort of of like minds in that sense. But he's he stayed in idaho for a while and wrote some books on hiking and the natural environment there, parlayed that into some copyediting job at a like an illegal firm or something, and then parlayed that into something at amazon and did all this stuff and rose through the ranks there and then got pinched by. I feel like he got taken by a guy who was maybe one of his bosses at Amazon and moved over to Apple and I'm just sure that at Apple they all just kind of underestimated him. They just didn't quite pay attention to the fact that he was who he was and a lot of these places are very pedigree, right Good colleges and all that kind of stuff and I think he's just super hardworking and honest and makes people comfortable and stuff like that he's. He's just always been that way. It's pretty fun. It's been fun to watch.

Speaker 5: 19:18

Actually, don't tell him. I said that I'm not going to. I'm not going to send any messages to Rob. I'm uncomfortable. My name is Scott Glass. I've known Rob since. I'm uncomfortable. My name is Scott Glass. I've known Rob since I think I was 13 or 14 years old when we played sports together. We've been in different parts of the world but we've spent a lot of time supporting each other over the years and over the miles since we were kids. That's all I got to say about that guy.

Speaker 1: 19:59

He's my best friend.

Speaker 3: 20:01

Good stuff, man.

Speaker 1: 20:03

He's like my brother for sure, totally, yeah. And you know the thing about Scott this is not his podcast, so I'm not going to go into it too much, but we are definitely very similar in the sense that we've scrapped a lot. Yeah, just kind of figured things out. Yeah, I, I would like, I sometimes well, this is so morbid, but, like um, I already know what I'm going to say if, if he dies before me and you know it's something along the lines of um, you know he's made me a better person because of how, how fearless he is, how hard he works, and um just wanting to do, be the best he can be, you know. And so um that's what I would say to him is like his, his journey has influenced my journey for sure. Yeah, man.

Speaker 3: 21:00

Good people influence good people, for sure.

Speaker 1: 21:04

Yeah, but his memory is terrible. He got most of that right, but he missed some details. Yeah, you know, it's the some details. Yeah, you know, I slid into him the 30,000 foot view. Yeah, I slid into him at second base.

Speaker 3: 21:14

Oh, that is a big detail to get wrong. Yeah, what took you to catch him, idaho man?

Speaker 1: 21:22

Yeah well, I took a break for a semester. I think it was my second or my winter semester of um at.

Speaker 5: 21:32

Washington state At Washington state.

Speaker 1: 21:34

Yep, I had a guy, Barry Barr great guy who actually launched Caboo Um no way. Amazing guy. Um, he had a place there and he dragged me along At the time. It was kind of old school, ski mountain town, pre new money, old money, super cool. And I'd never, you know, grew up in the suburbs and old money, like ranch money, Like what?

Speaker 3: 22:01

what's old money in Ketchum, you know, like that.

Speaker 1: 22:04

Yeah, that kind of thing, totally Um and like, not ostentatious at all. Right, I mean my boss at the bald man cantina, that Mexican restaurant that Scott mentioned, uh, her mom, um, I, I think they all these kids were super smart, super wholesome and she was the dishwasher and she would let's. I don't want to tell any unflattering stories, but essentially, like she drew the drove, this like very old suburban and we would kind of pile in sometimes and we'd find these checks for like uh, that someone had written her for whatever, for like $10,000.

Speaker 1: 22:45

And she was kind of like this old school hippie you know, um, but it was. It was that kind of vibe it was. It was just cool and people were true ski bums there.

Speaker 3: 22:52

Yeah, what year is this? Oh gosh, um, like early nineties, yeah, it's kind of mid nineties, yeah, mid nineties.

Speaker 1: 22:59

Okay, so I stuck around, I graduated, went back, graduated from Washington state, stuck around and um, just initially, you know, was tending bar somewhere and um, and went and got a job.

Speaker 1: 23:14

Well, I did one day as a substitute teacher at Wood River High School. One of the teachers said my husband's looking for a copy editor and so they hired. Ultimately they hired me at this publishing house in in Ketchum and my boss, clarence Stillwell, who was kind of like the Ernest Hemingway of Ketchum although Ernest Hemingway did live and die in Ketchum, but he was that kind of guy, amazing guy, just a mountain guy and super cool, and he would take me hiking out, you know, just like let's get the hell out of here, let's go. Beautiful day, that kind of guy and just we, just adventure. Anyway, he was starting this book project inspired by Idaho for the curious, which was a book by court Conley, and he wanted to do a book called Washington for the curious and essentially it was an historical road guide where we drove all 180 or so highways and wrote about what we saw and how towns were settled how they were named the geography, the geology and just you know.

Speaker 1: 24:22

So it was a 450 page book. Ultimately, dude, that'd be a good podcast. Oh, yeah, yeah, you know, I'd love to rewrite that. That'd be a good podcast. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I we you know, I'd love to rewrite that book just kind of uh, but I agree, it would be a great podcast.

Speaker 3: 24:40

Yeah, Just segment it out Totally. You just gave me a great idea and or or record it from the road, oh for sure, you know, and just like on location in each of these places. It's a great idea, yeah, uh anyways.

Speaker 1: 24:47

Well, so my boss was the he was the actual writer, you know but he, he, um, he was busy with something else and he said you know what? Um, I need you to just write this one section. You know, like, go drive, he, he, he sent me out to Washington state and he gave me some instructions and I forget the highway. But he said go do this. And so I did, and I came home and I had about two weeks before that highway, maybe it was like Highway 26. I'm just making that up, but probably five or six pages of writing and I wrote the heck out of it. You know where I'd write all day and then I'd come home and I'd rewrite it and it was perfect by the time I was done with that and he's like oh yeah, this is pretty good, you know, keep going. And he was still busy with with stuff.

Speaker 1: 25:38

So ultimately, um, and I ended up hiring, um, a good friend of mine from school to kind of help me finish it from school, to kind of help me finish it, a guy named Sean Carconan, another fantastic guy. Yeah, anyway, we wrote this 450-page book and then from there, once you're published, you can do a lot of different things. And so we started, we wrote these. They were called the Trail Book and it's essentially hiking guides and we did them in around Ketchum and then Boise, seattle, portland, mount Hood and you know different places all around the Northwest Um, and so you know essentially. And then I was doing some kind of freelance like um journalism I guess, for like magazines or paper.

Speaker 3: 26:28

Yeah yeah, nice, were you like. Were you getting like contracts for like like outdoor pieces, or was it all over the place?

Speaker 1: 26:36

Mostly outdoor type stuff, yeah, but it could have been, and I was at kind of on the edge of whether I should, uh, follow this path. I mean, of course you make no money but like um, but it was cool.

Speaker 3: 26:49

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 26:49

Super cool work, um, and so like, it'd be like go write about a loft in downtown Ketchum or go float this river and and just write about the experience. Fantastic, you know, um, super cool. But um, I you know, I think I got a little big for my britches and I was like I can do anything now. And and so my Scott from before he was an architect in in New York we're like let's write a screenplay and he was in New York and so I just.

Speaker 1: 27:21

I left everything and moved out to um New York.

Speaker 3: 27:25

Like NYC, yeah, like New York City, yeah, lower East Side. Had you been there before?

Speaker 1: 27:31

I mean briefly Okay, but like, but yeah, we spent. I don't know, I probably spent about six months there.

Speaker 3: 27:36

That's a big shift, dude yeah.

Speaker 1: 27:38

Yeah, it was awesome, I bet. But I well, we kind of sort of wrote a screenplay or tried to never, we never finished. We were just having fun, but it was an excuse to like kind of, um, continue, you know, our, our, we used to have this saying uh, you know, you do not want to relinquish your youth and and hold onto that, and so that was just a little bit more of that. He was getting serious with his architecture, Actually, I mean, he did, he's doing stuff all over the world. So I, I had another friend, good friend of mine, named Todd Sloan in Seattle and, um, he had a place, he needed a roommate and I heard some buzz about, you know, um, no, there's just things were happening. You know this was Um, no, there's just things were happening. You know, this was well, actually, before Amazon, Microsoft was beginning this thing called totally unique, you know, for it was like the first thing that you could go online and learn about, like what to do and where to go.

Speaker 1: 28:59

And so, um, I knew I could write that and so I got a gig doing that and then Amazon was taking off, and then I jumped over to Amazon and that's where it really got kind of crazy. You know, because I was there, I was the 30th book editor. They hired, uh, and and I was had the worst, worst jobs. Um, or the the smallest categories would say, uh, audio books and sports and outdoors, and um, but at the time you know, amazon was blown up and so you know I was like sports and outdoors as a category was relatively small. But then John Krakauer writes Into Thin.

Speaker 3: 29:41

Air.

Speaker 1: 29:42

And I interviewed John Krakauer, but you know all that. That category was blown up, so I was kind of on a cool category. And then audiobooks, and this is. I hadn't planned to bring this up, but at the time Amazon was losing money on every book sold, every hardcover sold. But audiobooks had a ton of margin for a bunch of reasons, for a bunch of reasons, and so I convinced higher ups to put in what we called another edition, link other editions, and it was audio books. I was also kind of managing large print, which truly was the bottom of the barrel in terms of category size, and so they added links to this. This book is also available as an audio book or as in large print. So audio books, which was like 200,000 a year, within a year or two became a $20 million business, and now it's, you know, massive.

Speaker 1: 30:39

And so a little bit of luck, you know. But um, then things kind of took off and and, um, you know, we, uh, other people I'm not going to tell the Amazon story, but um, it was a cool time to be there, just because the way people bought books uh, totally changed, you know.

Speaker 3: 31:04

Do you, do you listen to audio books? Um, because I know you read a lot.

Speaker 1: 31:09

Yeah, I do. I listen to a lot of podcasts and I mean I'll listen to an audiobook on road trips. But and they are, I mean they are super, they were. I managed audiobooks at Apple. Yeah. They are the fastest growing. They continue to be the fastest growing segment of books. They continue to be the fastest growing segment of books.

Speaker 3: 31:35

But no, I like to read. Yeah, I've been enjoying doing these podcasts with a couple authors, like reading their book and then getting to interview them and then, somewhat, like Darren Pleasance did, an audio book of his and I told him he should put his podcast episode as a bonus on the audio book because I listened to, I think, who was it. It was an audio book by I can't remember who it was, but they he after he was interviewed and I felt like I learned more about the book I read because I got to know him better, you know.

Speaker 1: 32:10

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 32:11

That's. That's cool man, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 32:14

So anyways, audio books, so audio books. You know, managing that at at Amazon led to the job at.

Speaker 3: 32:23

Apple yeah, Did. Did Apple recruit you?

Speaker 1: 32:26

Did Apple recruit you? Well, my manager at Amazon moved to. He interviewed with Steve Jobs because they were launching iTunes, and I think his first gig was New Music Tuesday, which is their newsletter. And then he eventually did a lot of, he managed a lot of things and so, yeah, I guess he recruited me, I, I guess he recruited me and, um, I came down and took over audio books and that was great, um.

Speaker 3: 33:24

I. There's a couple of questions that I wanted to revisit with you that you, you know, had shared with me prior to us recording, and, and one, just because I'd like you to talk more about it, is I asked what role has mentorship played in your journey and who has been influential in that role? And you replied Jeff Bezos and Steve Jobs, both for very different reasons. Yeah right, talk a little bit, just a little bit, because it's not often well ever that I have a guest on this podcast who I ask that question to a lot of people. I don't get those responses right. You know, people of that kind of, at that level of kind of, in their respective kind of area of tech or industry and development, especially during the time frame we're talking about. Yeah, yeah, well um.

Speaker 1: 34:14

To be totally upfront, initially. You know it's not like Jeff, you know I don't call him now Uh um, but I w, so I had yeah, but but you were.

Speaker 3: 34:29

you were editor number 30, which means that you had you know. I mean that there's interaction there. So, like I get that it's probably more of a passive mentorship, sure, but still to just observe that, what was that like?

Speaker 1: 34:42

Well, I, with Jeff, I had about a year where I left books and I was the internal communications manager. And I was the internal communications manager and the cool thing about that was that I met monthly with the senior team, including Jeff, and it was partly because at the time we do these meetings with the entire company basically the corporate people, at least least not the warehouse people and so I would sat at a table with, you know, jeff and the other six to 10 senior vice presidents, and so that was an incredible experience, because he is totally brilliant, you know, and harsh and you know smart and funny and all those things. But I, I'd say, with Jeff, um, or really more of an Amazon influence, which is that you just kind of well, let me say this, we had this award that we um pass out internally called the just do it award, and essentially, if you had this idea, just go go figure it out and launch it, and they wanted you to kind of break some rules. I love that. Go figure it out and launch it, and they wanted you to kind of break some rules. I love that. Yeah, it was great and so, like that always stuck with me and Amazon would just, they would try all sorts of things, you know, things that stick, let me.

Speaker 1: 36:05

Let me give you one of those examples would be like we're going to start selling used books. I'm like, why would you do that? Because it's going to cannibalize your new book sales. But it turns out there's certain kind of customers for both Right, and so eventually the, the marketplace, the used book market, um, was really successful and it was incremental, not it didn't cannibalize necessarily Right, and so like that, like don't.

Speaker 1: 36:32

And then of course, amazon on a, on its whole, they completely broke the book selling and publishing industry, not to mention everything else, and so that kind of stuck with me. You don't have to follow the traditional rules of doing business. Now, Steve Jobs and to be totally clear there, I received two emails from him in my time. I actually never sat in a small meeting room with him, but I did send a couple of things, or you know, eventually I got I was the, I worked on the, the new music Tuesday email and I wrote a couple of things that was, that were good, and, and he sent me like a two word response or three words. So this is good, you know, or?

Speaker 3: 37:13

from what I've read about him, or three words, this is good, you know. From what I've read, about him.

Speaker 1: 37:16

That that means something. Yeah, absolutely yeah. Um, but Apple was totally different than Amazon, where and this is the Steve Jobs influence so I are they mentors, not personally, but like the way they did things.

Speaker 3: 37:27

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 37:27

Um, for sure I get it. Um, steve, steve, apple, they did not want you to go do things. Everything was very buttoned up. I couldn't go talk to the press and I had plenty of interviews and I'd sat on plenty of panels at Amazon, but no way at Apple. And everything you produced at Apple almost to like an email you'd send to a publisher, to certainly the hard products, but like as a marketing guy within iTunes and then iBooks, every word was like had to be perfect. You know, the imagery had to be perfect, the pricing had to be perfect, um, the pricing had to be perfect, everything had to be thought out. And so that stuck with me almost to the negative, but it definitely has helped me. Um, where I get kind of anal about everything I send and do. And so now you know, fast forward to, you know, working at stand on or owning stand on liquid where it's a, it's a paddleboard shop or a ski shop, lot 44, sports, and no one cares, you know, about that kind of stuff and the people I work with don't?

Speaker 1: 38:44

you know I have to kind of like shift culturally a little bit but at the same time, creating you know things that are the best you can be is a lesson that I've taken and I think I've passed along.

Speaker 3: 38:58

I think that before we move into kind of the the stand on liquid, kind of lap 44 season of life, one thing. The other question I've been enjoying asking people lately and getting to know them is something that people don't know about you that you kind of wish they did or my people might find interesting and your involvement. You that you kind of wish they did or people might find interesting and your involvement. You talked about kind of being a witness in the Department of Justice antitrust lawsuit that Apple went through. I didn't know much about that, so I was reading about it.

Speaker 3: 39:27

That sounds like quite the experience, man, horrific.

Speaker 1: 39:34

But yeah, it was, it was insane.

Speaker 3: 39:37

And I guess, now that I've learned what your role there was, it makes absolute sense why you were there.

Speaker 1: 39:44

Well, I was talking, I mean I did. I didn't do so. There's, at the time, there were the big six publishers and now it's five, and there's continued mergers, but I didn't do those core deals, though I set them up, like I said, cause I knew I was the one guy, my boss, and this is all tied to the launch of the iPad.

Speaker 1: 40:16

And essentially they're like we want meetings with the CEOs of the big six on Monday, and so this was came on Friday and you know time zone change and so I mean I literally I was just like they're all East Coast yeah.

Speaker 3: 40:30

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 40:31

So I'm, they're all New York and I'm just making calls and but as soon as they heard Apple, you know they, they jumped.

Speaker 1: 40:37

And part of the reason they jumped is because, um, amazon was selling eBooks through their Kindle.

Speaker 1: 40:45

They had launched it a year, year plus before um at a loss and and they wanted to kind of and they wanted to kind of and they were in publishers' minds, they were devaluing books. You know, they were used to selling their $27 hardcovers, yeah, and so, anyway, they ultimately, well, they all answered the phone and I talked to the admin or the right-hand person for the CEO this is all in the course of hours and we had meetings set up so that they, you know, they went and had their high level conversations to get the big deals done. But then I signed, um, we were trying to get people set up to work with us. I mean hundreds of deals and, um, ultimately, through the course of those big deals and my deals, uh, there was an accusation that we uh fixed prices or colluded with publishers to fix price, fix prices of um of eBooks and, uh, we lost the case. Um, continue to think that it was insane and stupid and like not true, it seems just like a business strategy.

Speaker 3: 41:58

Well, it was like yep, I mean, and and I don't really, I barely understand what antitrust laws are, but like when I read through it, I to me, yeah, I mean you lose those you lose in those cases when, like Amazon came out looking good because they're lowering the cost of things.

Speaker 1: 42:15

And if you're lowering the cost of things and if you're lowering prices, like the government just thinks that's inherently good, even if the impact of lowering those those prices are putting most other booksellers out of business. And that's kind of what it was about. It was crazy, but you know what a trip.

Speaker 3: 42:34

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 42:36

But you know, as a kind of an earnest, honest guy who um understood the marketplace and um had the most relationships. And then you know we launched iPad and we do some really cool things on there. You know, like um, not a ton of people download of these, but we created an enhanced version of the Game of Thrones books of Harry Potter, you know.

Speaker 3: 43:03

I mean we created some really cool things and you were involved in leadership on those projects. Yeah, I mean those. That's cool. I've never experienced that, but it sounds way ahead of the time. It was kind of ahead of its time.

Speaker 1: 43:15

I mean massive books ahead of its, like the time it was kind of ahead of its time. I mean massive books and, um you know, I was a fan of both those series and and, uh, you know, had the opportunity to say work with the publisher and say let's do this, and so we created cool stuff.

Speaker 1: 43:30

so suddenly you know we're, we're, um. I was the last uh witness for Apple on the stand and you know what I kind of learned? I mean, I can be political. I'll try to avoid it for the most part, but generally things are not as they seem. It's certainly in the business world and there's. I mean, what I learned in that situation is like the government doesn't care who's right or wrong, they just want to win the case. You know and I'm not anti-government, but in that case, in that specific case, they just wanted to win the argument.

Speaker 1: 44:43

And so they came at me really hard for really dumb reasons and, um, yeah, I got through it, but, like it was, it was, uh, it was definitely. You know, I'm in a room with a hundred people, including including, you know, reporters from everywhere and the senior vice president of legal, you know, um, staring at me and I had to make sure every word was right. And so, uh, it was, it was. It was really hard, it was really hard, but got through it.

Speaker 3: 45:12

Yeah, that's one of those going back to life moments that builds some confidence when you look back on what you've gotten through. Yeah, that's gotta be up there Totally.

Speaker 1: 45:20

Totally yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's something I always kind of think about. It's like well, you know I got, and actually before that I was on the stand or not on the stand, I was deposed by the department of justice for eight hours straight, you know, um, but I didn't do anything wrong. So ultimately you kind of learn. You know? Uh, just tell the truth and you're okay.

Speaker 3: 45:44

What a trip. Yeah, yeah, that's. That's quite a life experience. I was in a bank robbery once oh, hey yeah, how'd that go? Um, it was scary man. Yeah, yeah, like, uh, I'm trying to think of something that's rare in life experience, like being being deposed by the department of justice. You know that's that's not that many people are put in that legal scenario.

Speaker 1: 46:08

Terrifying.

Speaker 3: 46:09

Yeah, the bank robbery. Yeah it was. It was up in Coeur d'Alene where I grew up. I was probably I think probably 15 and it was in early December when it gets dark, really early, and I was putting my paycheck from my job into my bank and they were just closing and it would dude. It was like a movie.

Speaker 3: 46:28

Like this guy came in in a ski mask with the pistol and just jumped over the you know the lane ropes, that kind of used to go like this in banks and yeah, and I was the only customer in there, man, and he, just he, he robbed the joint. What?

Speaker 1: 46:43

did you, do you drop to yeah?

Speaker 3: 46:45

He kind of used me as some leverage, if you will, for a minute, and then he told me to get on the ground which was you know? I mean, I barely remember it really and when you're in those things it's happening so quick. You're like is this really happening? You know, anytime you have a weapon pointed at you it gets real, real quick. And I grew up around firearms so like I knew the inherent risk and danger of you know pointing a weapon around like that. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 47:14

Yeah, they caught the guy. That's good. Yeah, like three weeks later, I think he got away for a while. I think robbers could get away back in the day easier. There was less surveillance.

Speaker 1: 47:27

Seems harder now Hell yeah dude.

Speaker 3: 47:32

You know, what's rad about this episode is that you and I got together or started talking because initially I wanted to kind of supplement this stand-up paddle episode I'm doing with you know, stand on liquid, because it's a big community presence in that world and you guys are like you know what it sounds like and what you shared with me, the kind of the, the leading independent, kind of what would you call yourselves.

Speaker 1: 48:00

I mean, I'm a West coast, you guys, you guys kill it Retailer, yeah, yeah, and we've, you guys kill it Manufacturer retailer yeah.

Speaker 3: 48:04

And this is the first time we've talked about paddle boarding. That's right, which is awesome.

Speaker 1: 48:08

Yeah, absolutely yeah. So Mike and Jenny Mudd started Stand and Liquid in 2010.

Speaker 3: 48:17

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 48:18

And initially it was, they just sold other people's boards. Yeah, I, mike and I went to school, washington state, and you know I was traveling from here down to to um, california, pretty much every week for many years and I needed you know. I knew it wasn't going to last forever, it was starting to wear on me and so I.

Speaker 3: 48:43

I the the nine year commute starting to wear on me, and so I, I the the nine year commute.

Speaker 1: 48:49

Yeah, it was a nine year commute typically Monday through Thursday. It was a lot you did owe your wife a lot of meals.

Speaker 3: 49:01

My wife travels one week a month during the school year and um our kids at the age where it's doable, but man it's busy. So, yeah, I I have the utmost respect, like utmost respect, for single parents. That hustle man, yeah, it's insane.

Speaker 1: 49:11

If my wife goes out of town now and I'm with my kids and you know I just what you just said, you know like total respect for for people trying to feed their kids and make money. You know it's really hard.

Speaker 3: 49:28

You started to go kind of into the stand on liquid kind of story. But you've, you've, essentially you're now. Are you the sole owner? I'm a co-owner, co -owner With the original founders.

Speaker 1: 49:40

No, the Mudd's.

Speaker 4: 49:42

Mike and Jenny.

Speaker 1: 49:43

They sold their interest and I took it over, and actually my attorney, as we were doing, the deal became my partner. Okay, that's Pat, okay, and then Hugh Wilson. He is also a part owner as well.

Speaker 3: 50:01

Yeah, stand up, paddling man. Yeah, stand up, stand up, paddling man. It's, uh, it's, it's old enough now, and it's kind of story, to kind of have some seasons to it. You know, it seems like it was. It blew up and then it seems like there was a little lull and now it starts to, and I don't know, this is just observation, but it seems like there's some more. You know, the whole push towards inflatables seem to change everything, or maybe not.

Speaker 1: 50:33

I don't know. Yeah, there's definitely been seasons spikes and you know, initially we sold just a ton of hard boards. Yeah. And partly because, well, they still are better. They perform better on water. Inflatables used to kind of suck, but they're much better now. Yeah, Newer people in the sport, less sophisticated, they have less space or you know transport options, so that works for inflatables. But you know, you throw in COVID, um which?

Speaker 4: 51:06

made everything nutty.

Speaker 1: 51:07

So, uh, sales were crazy and we ran out of everything, yeah, and then, like everyone, we kind of overordered, yeah, but then we got all that stuff late. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 51:19

We missed the entire summer and so we were sitting, we had like four containers I mean hundreds of thousands of dollars of paddle boards arrived after the season, you know. And then the market itself, I think, was saturated because all the cheap stuff direct from China or, you know, on Amazon for 200 bucks, but it's crummy, you know, it's not good, so kind of competing against that, and then you see, like, like the, the premium, premium brands, um, made from the same factors as us, you know, essentially the same, but they have been around a lot longer. Um, they've been slashing prices and so it's been. It's been challenging, for sure, but we're getting through it and at least locally.

Speaker 1: 52:12

I think the one thing that we have is, you know, customer service, which is like the key to everything. Right, and helping people find the right board for them and making it talking to them in an authentic way. We care, you know, and, and that's everything. That is everything. That's how we survive, that's how small bookstores, indie bookstores, will survive. Is that they have people that actually read books, and, uh, that's how we're we will survive, that's how we are surviving, which is that, which is that, you know, we find the right board for the right person.

Speaker 3: 52:48

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 52:49

And we make the whole process like comfortable and not intimidating, because it's scary. You know these big pieces of this big product, and how do you get it on your car, how do you carry it, how do you paddle, and so I'm really proud of what we built. And do you carry it? How do you paddle? And so, um, I'm really proud of what we built, and where we are now.

Speaker 3: 53:10

You know you took it from. I mean, you guys were in Costco, we were in Costco for a spell, that's, that's, that's. I mean that's seems like a big deal.

Speaker 1: 53:21

It was, it was a big deal, um we sold a gazillion boards, you know, and, uh, really great opportunity got. It, helped us expand our brand nationally, um, because they're national, um, and when you put something online there like we'd have these special deal sales, I mean you'll sell, you, we'd show up in the morning after you know, on Monday morning after a weekend, and there'd be an like 75 orders for thousand dollar paddle boards, you know, and so awesome, Right, but you know, putting 75 hard boards in boxes and taping them, that's a lot of work.

Speaker 3: 54:07

It's a lot of work.

Speaker 1: 54:08

It's physical, no problem, but um, but the challenge becomes and I'm super glad we did it, but the challenge becomes that, um, ordering the right amount of stuff and not, you know, getting over your skis, is really hard because you're ordering it from China and it takes three months to get here and the demand can be so hot, you know, you just don't want to, or, you know, then you throw in like a COVID or something and then it just dies and then on top of that, the margins at Costco are just really tough. I believe that. So a lot of work and ultimately, glad we did it, but glad we're not doing it.

Speaker 3: 54:51

Yeah, I would imagine that there, like it's not, I would imagine. It seems that I've heard similar stories about different outdoor equipment sectors, like mountain biking, for example, and kind of a similar impact that COVID had in terms of saturating the market with product. And what I found interesting when I was talking to I think it was Don Leet, who was telling me that you know these similar these, you know very established bike manufacturers and brands for the first time ever starting to like slash prices on their inventory because the market's so saturated and that's part of that is why so many everybody and their brother is selling e-bikes now, because that's kind of the one area that can there's people are buying is our e-bikes right, but like muscle power bikes or sales are down man.

Speaker 1: 55:48

Yeah, or so I hear, I don't know. Well, I think they are, I think there's local businesses that are closing and.

Speaker 1: 55:55

I mean, this is business, right, things trend and then they disappear and it's harsh, it's really harsh. And you know, as a small business guy this is going to sound super trite, but I've realized just how like the importance of you're not a business unless you have profit yeah, kind of obvious. But like I think a lot of people kind of jump into this, this kind of stuff, and they don't really pay attention to well, a cashflow and margins, you know, because there's a lot you have to do to bring in product and then if you don't sell that, product you're, you're, you're in trouble.

Speaker 1: 56:41

Yeah, you're hosed man. Yeah, so about five years ago. Obviously, paddleboarding is a seasonal sport, and so we wanted to do something in the winter which it turns out, winter is longer season than summer around here, no joke.

Speaker 3: 57:01

And it's shifting too. It's bizarre, totally shifting.

Speaker 1: 57:04

I mean, the summer business is really like June 15th to August 15th before the smoke comes, so pretty short. You know, totally it's two months, that's it. I mean there's stuff, you know, in the shoulders for sure, but we do sell a lot of surf stuff, which is cool, yeah, but for the river wave, but yeah, we started Latitude 44 sports about five, six years ago. Initially it was just secondhand. Yeah, my kids I had three kids that all went through MBSCF.

Speaker 3: 57:38

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 57:39

And we realized Shit's expensive bro. It's expensive, were they ski racers. Yeah, the first one, yeah, really, yeah, yeah, yeah they, they all did a little ski racing um. You gotta have like 12 pairs of skis, man well, my kids didn't, you know, they, I'm just I'm just kidding it's funny, though, because they started young so they can do like on their skinny skis, they can ski powder you, you know cause? That's all they had.

Speaker 3: 58:06

Oh, don't get me wrong. Some of the best skiers in the world most of them all, have a have a foundation from from racing gates in terms of like, having to truly like turn a ski Absolutely, but um so Lap 44. Yeah, you guys, I mean I've been in there a couple of times in the last couple of years and I mean I was in there like three weeks ago. And, by the way, have those racks come in? Do you guys have new racks? Yet we do, we should have called you Nice.

Speaker 1: 58:37

Well, that's when I saw you call.

Speaker 3: 58:41

Uh, anyways, like, yeah, um products insane, like, like the quality, like it looks really good in there.

Speaker 1: 58:54

Thank you, yeah, yeah, we really care about the curation we try to on the winter side. We try to be selective about what we take Yep. What we take yep needs to be laundered, needs to be working. It needs to be organized in store, in the store itself. Um, there's a ton of gear in town we work a lot with like, um, uh, certainly like sales reps. We we really value their, the gear they bring to us, and then pros, you know we get a lot of gear.

Speaker 1: 59:24

that that's really cool. Um, you know, we have historically had really good payout rates. Um, we, we, you know, gear fixes obviously the big dog in town and and they've been great to us. They, you know when they run out of stuff they'll send customers our way. So all good there, um, but you know, we do things a little different.

Speaker 1: 59:43

Um think the customer service piece is the thing we pride ourselves in. Speaking for myself, I really well, I'm not an overly technical guy on gear and some people love that and that's totally cool. But when they come in and they want to talk to me about like camber or radius or this or that, I'm like, let me grab. Uh, I usually grab Pat, who's fantastic and he has both the patience and the knowledge to to talk through those things. Um, but you know, I I try to take the usual. Well, we never want to be too cool to our customers in the sense of like oh, you know, we know more than you. You're asking dumb questions. No, no, that's just the opposite. You know, we know more than you, you're asking dumb questions. No, no, that's just the opposite. You know, I think that's so silly. We'd love the families that come through and just kind of helping people get on equipment and not breaking the bank is something that we really pride ourselves in, and so I think it's a good formula and it's working pretty well.

Speaker 3: 1:00:45

Well, yeah man, it's a good formula and it's it's, it's working pretty well. Well, yeah, man, it's a great formula and I and the I mean it's nice to know that there's other options for people that want to partake in all that our region has to offer without having to buy new shit all the time.

Speaker 1: 1:01:03

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:01:04

I mean it's hard for business and that's where I think there's this kind of like uh, you know catch 22, where you'd like to see brands and you know models have more than just one year of like relevance right, especially like towards younger people and snowboards and skis. I mean, when I was growing up, it was like everybody wanted new things every year, you know, and I feel like that used to be kind of standard operating procedure, but I feel like it's shifting more in the last like decade. There's more emphasis towards kind of getting more out of the life of something before you buy it another one.

Speaker 1: 1:01:43

Well, again, I'm not like I did not own a new pair of skis and I'm a guy that lived in Ketchum, idaho, and now own a ski shop for whatever seven years or so yeah, until like six, seven years ago, you know, and for 95% of people it just does not matter. What matters is getting outside and being with friends or family, that's it, that's it. Couldn't agree more. And and like you know, certainly okay, like, uh, skate skis, nordic skis, you know. I mean you definitely need to have the right flex, you need to have the right um, if you were a strong skate skier, you need to have the equipment match your height, weight, experience, all that stuff. That's important, but 95% of the people we sell stuff to just want to get outside.

Speaker 1: 1:02:41

And and so that's kind of my, our mission. You know it's like don't break the bank, don't make it an intimidating process, help people get outside and make the experience when they're in our store cool. You know, I mean this is going to sound a little whatever, but like we joke that we want to be the cheers of like a retail experience, so we really try to remember people's names, partly because we probably owe them money because they're selling with us, you know, but also just makes people feel good and like, uh, we want to connect with people and you know we're not saving lives Although I kind of think we are sometimes but like yeah, you argue.

Speaker 3: 1:03:22

arguably you are I think so a little bit by people getting outside. You can't really argue that. You absolutely are. I mean I guess define saving lives, but mentally, physically, emotionally. I mean yeah, buddy.

Speaker 1: 1:03:41

Can I take a tangent here, please? Can I take a tangent here, please? During COVID whatever the hardcore year was that summer I had, I don't know multiple people break down in tears during the interaction. And I'll just give you one example and it's really illustrative and it's kind of like stuck with me Um, it would be a single mom, um, with her kid, who might not be the traditional, you know, baseball or football kid or basketball kid, you know, just, maybe not not athletically gifted single mom, and she just wants to get the kid outside and she owns a less expensive paddleboard and she drives up to the lake.

Speaker 1: 1:04:34

It's her, it's her time, she finally has some time. You know she's working hard, trying to make ends meet. She goes up to the river or the lake and her fin is missing, Okay, so she comes to my, comes to our shop and, um, you know you can tell she's on edge and and she just needs a fin. You know that's it, she just needs a fin. And so we find her fin and show her how to put it in, you know, um, cause you know it's not totally intuitive at all.

Speaker 1: 1:05:08

And not no, this is not about us, but it's just about, um, well, to your point, adam, like, uh, the the benefits, the importance of being outside, like um, you, you show her how to put the fin on, you sell her a fin or you maybe give it away you know, 10 bucks, whatever and you just break down in tears, you know, because you're the kids in the car and you know they just want to get. They have this window, they want to make their outdoor experience happen, because she knows it's important and, um, that to me is kind of the most important thing that I do I love that.

Speaker 3: 1:05:52

That's your why. Yeah, I think so. I was going to ask you what's your why with this, with paddleboarding and um and and latitude 44, because it's easy for me to draw the like, make the connection with your, your previous career kind of your love for your, you know your, your background in literature and English and journalism and that parlayed into like opportunity and in terms of text, timing and all of that, and then to step out of that into other than being in bin full time, like you know. I don't, and maybe you didn't know your why right at the very beginning. Maybe it's defined itself as time's gone on, but that seems like it.

Speaker 1: 1:06:35

Oh, perceptive question. I, I for for sure it was being here, local, with my family, and then it became okay, how do I do this? And actually, you know, make ends meet Totally, you know, and there's a whole business side of things that are, it's always challenging, but as I do this, it's um, why am I doing this, like when I show up what matters?

Speaker 3: 1:07:03

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:07:03

And I guess my why at the shop is being authentic and helping people out.

Speaker 3: 1:07:19

I mean, yeah, I think you previously said it was getting people outside for all of the things and seeing the value in that. I mean that's, that's kind of become this weird tagline with this podcast at the very end and I don't even know if people ever listened to it, but at the very end of the show credits, you know it's like what do I say, uh, thanks for this. Something like get outside, we'll see out there. You know, yeah, like, cause clearly there's value in it. I mean that out there.

Speaker 1: 1:07:49

You know, yeah, like, because clearly there's value in it I mean that's.

Speaker 3: 1:07:51

You know, well, for me there is like I'm kind of grumpy, son of a bitch if I don't get outside and exercise or, you know, just engage in nature, man. That's why most a lot of people live here, for that reason.

Speaker 1: 1:08:01

Well, for sure, and I mean we're kind of touching on the value of getting outside and it's everything really, and it's also it's both everything in terms of I mean there's a reason that, like you know, kids that are troubled they do these outdoor kind of things because it kind of puts things in perspective and, um, it's just so healthy I have, uh, I'll see kids that go that are involved in some of those programs in this area with like injuries at work and and treat them and I've gotten to know some of the um and it's sometimes I'll see them when they get initial like just start the program you know, and I'll treat them for like a wrist fracture or something that requires a few months of follow up and you will see like I'll observe kind of a change in their personality not personality demeanor and kind of how they engage.

Speaker 3: 1:09:06

Age and it's it's. I don't really ever get the chance to really dive in with them, but I've had some conversations with some of the chaperones of them, cause it's always the, you know, there's a small group of people that do that, so you get to know them over the years, and we've had similar conversations to that as to why these kinds of outdoor programs for I don't know young people who have made poor decisions in life are can be very effective, and a big part of it is just that. Then you know the natural exposure to the elements and all that comes with that.

Speaker 1: 1:09:37

Absolutely, you know, I mean my. My favorite thing to do if I have an hour is to take my dog and walk the river trail. You know it's easiest thing to do. Put on a headphones and a podcast and just kind of like clear the head and come back and I'm ready to go.

Speaker 3: 1:09:58

Yeah, we're so, we're so. Blessed dude, yeah, yeah, that's awesome I bet you've become. I know you're not a gear head, but your knowledge has at least gotten broad, if not deep, on stuff I bet.

Speaker 1: 1:10:12

Modesty aside, I truly think that, both on the paddleboard and the ski side, I almost always can know what someone, the right product for that person, is within about 25 seconds, and it's partly what they want to spend. It's height, weight, it's confidence, it's experience, it's athleticism, it's all that stuff, you know. Yeah, 25 seconds is quick. It's almost always right. I swear, and I really try to listen, and I definitely never want to sell something that someone can't afford. You know that I have a bias towards like not overselling, yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:11:04

And then some people are like I appreciate that, bro.

Speaker 1: 1:11:06

Oh dude.

Speaker 3: 1:11:07

I mean that's I kind of have that mentality. You and I are very similar. I have that mentality when it comes to ordering diagnostics. You can accrue such a high bill with very rapid set of decisions in a medical office, you know, especially in orthopedics, you know. So, just developing a more balanced approach to that, so that cause, I think, a lot of things personally get overordered, you know, but for the same reason, I, I, I, it pains me to like for people to pay more than they should, or you know what I mean.

Speaker 1: 1:11:48

Well, you, can see the stress Totally.

Speaker 3: 1:11:51

And there's nothing worse than that. There's nothing worse than that, and I, I think I've experienced that, you know, and that's probably one reason why, like I'm sensitive to it.

Speaker 1: 1:12:00

Totally, totally. Some people literally want to spend the most they can because they think that matters, and in some cases you know you pay for lighter things or stronger things or whatever. But, like on the paddleboard side, you know it really is. You want the board to be buoyant enough, floaty enough, not too tippy, um. You want the person to be able to carry the board to and from the water, put it up on the car, um, and, and then a lot of it is just it. You know it's confidence, you know it's like are you going to, um be? Once you cause, once you paddle, the board actually will support you. Once you start going, and once you trust that the board supports you, you're fine. And so I.

Speaker 4: 1:12:57

I just judged their, their level of confidence, you know, and if they're not, and again that comes out really quickly.

Speaker 1: 1:13:04

Um, let's just start here. You know, on the ski side, especially like racing. You know, on the ski side, especially like racing. You know MBSCF kids. You know they pretty much just need a slalom ski and not overly stiff, and, and like you, you well, most parents are cool and they, they get it. Some want more than their kid can handle given their height and weight and you just kind of size that up pretty quickly.

Speaker 3: 1:13:37

Do you guys do tech work there too, like do you mount and do like tunes and all that stuff?

Speaker 1: 1:13:42

We do tunes, edging, waxing, that sort of thing. We mount some. We don't have a ton of jigs.

Speaker 3: 1:13:49

I worked in a snowboard shop in high school yeah like when the first grinder I came out. Do you remember? You know what that is like? A base grinder? Oh, yeah, yeah and it was like I I got really good at base grinding snowboards nice yeah, it was fun I, I got really adhd about base base you know, yeah, that's fun.

Speaker 3: 1:14:10

So you're you're working on kind of a really big next professional project, the Skyliner Club. I think you described it to me as a premier health fitness, wellness club with a social gathering component, correct? Does that describe it well? Absolutely, yeah, share a little bit about this. I mean, we're going to hear from John, but like just give people a little bit of a more kind of visual conception of what what you guys are up to For sure?

Speaker 1: 1:14:36

Um well, first we, we have purchased land. That is like awesome.

Speaker 3: 1:14:42

Wow.

Speaker 1: 1:14:42

Congratulations. Thank you Um John and I, and and some great investors, and it's a tight you know, coordinated group and it's on Skylar Road just past Miller Elementary, before the tree farm adjacent to that new daycare.

Speaker 3: 1:15:03

Oh, yeah, skylar. Yep, I know where you're talking. So we have two lots. There Are those acre lots.

Speaker 1: 1:15:09

Two acre lots, nice. So we have two lots. There Are those acre lots. Two acre lots, nice. Yeah, so two acres and it's about a 50,000 or so facility.

Speaker 3: 1:15:15

Okay.

Speaker 1: 1:15:16

And Wow.

Speaker 3: 1:15:18

It's a big project, dude.

Speaker 1: 1:15:20

Way bigger than I've ever done, for sure.

Speaker 3: 1:15:22

I love this story, man.

Speaker 1: 1:15:23

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:15:24

It's cool.

Speaker 1: 1:15:25

Yeah, we're so excited about it for a bunch of reasons. You know, starting from scratch has some value, because what people think of in terms of fitness and health has evolved. And the way I think, john, and I think about it, it's holistic. You know, it's not just lifting weights, it's, it's um you know cold plunge sauna breath work, all that.

Speaker 1: 1:15:59

Thank you, You're doing a great job with this. Uh and and, and you know you want modern equipment and, and I guess you know the biggest thing is like the social element like a place where people want to go with like-minded people to be um. You know, it's not just about working out, but it's like hanging out with people that care about their, their health and their community and so that, um, we feel like that's a little bit missing.

Speaker 1: 1:16:30

in Bend, oregon, we have this fantastic location and we have beautiful building that we're going to erect here and hopefully launch, uh, spring of 2026. Um, it's a place that, um, uh, you know you, you will have swimming. We have John was a uh ex um collegiate swimmer. He was Olympic trial guy.

Speaker 3: 1:16:54

Yeah, he was the assistant coach at Caldera this the year. My son was a freshman there, Um, and so, yeah, we got done talking and I'm like, oh, you swim, swim collegiately. My son's on that track. He's like who's your son? And I told him his name. He's like I coached Holden.

Speaker 1: 1:17:11

No way, small world. You know he's coached half the kids in town Totally and you know whether it's like a kid, like competitively swimming or just learning to swim you have to have that yeah. And certainly there's like other pools in town, like there's there's a well there's a huge lack of pool time.

Speaker 3: 1:17:30

man, yeah, this, I, this. I can't believe this is the first kind of week I've heard of this. I mean this is amazing because another pool is massive.

Speaker 1: 1:17:42

It's a nice pool. I mean it's, it's, you know, six lanes, but like wide lanes and 25 yard. Yeah, yeah, yep.

Speaker 3: 1:17:51

It's insane.

Speaker 1: 1:17:51

It's going to be great. And and then the sports core.

Speaker 3: 1:17:55

Good for you guys.

Speaker 1: 1:17:56

Yeah, we're excited about it. It's second two stories.

Speaker 3: 1:17:59

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:18:01

And then the this whole like West faces. Well, there's a deck that faces to the West. Beautiful views. No way that's like oh my God. Facing West on Skyliner and the thing I get excited about. I'm excited about all of it, but like Christmas parties or you know, corporate retreats, yoga, like we have a yoga place, but like if you have a big kind of conference, they can wake up and do their thing and look at the mountains and we really this is going to be fun, rob.

Speaker 3: 1:18:32

I know I know Dang dude, this is exciting. I'm excited to watch and stay in touch with you through this, thank you. Thank you, this is going to be really cool. I've thought for a long time that something that offered this type of stuff, you know, now you have a pool, now you can like tap into some of this underwater resistance training and like there's some cool stuff that you can do in the water that there's just not enough space to really do it in this town, you know. So I don't know if you're up, are you? Do you know about some of that stuff I'm talking about?

Speaker 1: 1:19:13

Well, no, but yes, in the sense that there's a lot of stuff where people are fitness health wise that we will need to figure out. Yeah, so think about like I mean we might. There's plenty of marathons and this, and that, oh my gosh.

Speaker 3: 1:19:31

Start it there, finish it there. The utilization is endless.

Speaker 1: 1:19:36

We're going to have a park the west side of it where people just a public park essentially, where people can come and clean their bikes, because it's right, by Phil's Trailhead Exactly.

Speaker 3: 1:19:52

Wow, dude, that's going to be dope. Yeah, all right. Um, so, john was really fun to talk to you. He's a cool guy. He's a great guy, yeah my name is john malfato.

Speaker 4: 1:20:01

I I've been here in bend about seven years. Um, rob and I got together a little over a year ago. Both our daughters played club soccer. His daughter was a little bit older than mine, but we kind of met through the club soccer scene here in Bend and just in talking to people, talking a little bit about the needs of the community in Bend, one of them being a nice health club in Bend with a pool, I was put in touch with Rob and Rob and I went out to coffee and kind of chatted about some of our uh, our our goals and dreams and things like that, and and, uh, we really hit it off. I mean, he's just a very humble guy. Um, you know, he he shouldn't be as humble as he is, and so that was something that that I I I really uh appreciated. Um, he's he's got a really great background and in talking with him I could tell that he cared about the community and improving the community.

Speaker 4: 1:21:19

Anytime that you meet someone that you could potentially go into business with personality matters, with personality matters, and, like I said, his humility came out early on, which is important. But also he's willing to take some risks and taking some risks for the community is really something that I've found has always helped ensure success. I'm a little less patient than Rob is. He's got an enormous amount of patience and he's very thoughtful about the way that he does things. Whenever we're in a meeting or anything like that, I'll just be talking away and he'll just be listening, and sometimes I don't like the silence. I'll look over to him and he's just thinking about it, listening to everyone that's in the conversation and formulating a really good response to whatever is needed. A really good response to whatever is needed, and that's something I really appreciate about him, which is a little bit of the yin to my yang. It's something I've actually tried to use more often.

Speaker 4: 1:22:43

I haven't been as successful at it, but Rob, coming from the corporate world, I know there's a lot of people who have been very comfortable in that world and never want to leave that world, and so it was really. I think it's really respectable for anyone who kind of leaves that corporate environment and says you know what? I'm going to go off on my own and I'm going to take a little bit of a risk and trust myself and invest in myself, and so I think that's something that I personally really respect I mean obviously because that's kind of how I've done my career, but it's something that a lot of people don't have. And something I've also found is, if you go at it, looking at, hey, I'm just going to make a ton of money because I'm going to invest in this great new startup, I haven't found that to be always the best way to go about it either, and so it was nice to find Rob, who felt just as passionate about the community as I am and producing something in the community that can help especially the youth of the community and the families, and so I think that's something that really, really helped when we were first meeting.

Speaker 4: 1:24:09

We are planning on submitting permits for the project at the end of June and we hope to break ground in the spring of 2025 and open our doors in the spring of 2026. So there are a lot of these small, really nice gyms in town, but there's not really a one-stop shop, and that's really what we're going for. We're going for a nice new, state-of-the-art one-stop shop with a pool, basketball courts, pickleball courts, a really nice gym, group, fitness, yoga studio, and then something that can do something for the social aspect too, that can do something for the social aspect too. We'll have a really nice cafe and bar, as well as a really nice deck that overlooks the Cascades and a food truck lot, and so it's right there at the base of Phil's Trailhead too. So we consider that just another amenity, and so we're really excited about it.

Speaker 1: 1:25:10

Ladies and gentlemen, skyliner Club Well geez, Uh, uh, first of all, um, well, John described it uh better than I could. Uh, I think you know, unbelievably flattered. Um, John is brilliant. I truly believe that and I've kind of meaning to tell him that for like about two months, you know, pull him aside because he's really humble too, you know, and, uh, he does a lot of self, he says a lot of self effacing things that none of them are true. Um, he is super, super, super, like perceptive and smart and positive and amazing.

Speaker 1: 1:25:59

He's an amazing guy. Yeah, he seems really cool. Yeah, and I would not be doing this without him. You know like I'm. The reason I'm now going on to this next thing is because of him. That's cool man and because you know, adam, I mean part of this podcast is about community.

Speaker 3: 1:26:17

His whole thing is community.

Speaker 1: 1:26:20

And this is what the community needs. This is what's missing. He is. I respect the heck out of his commitment to family. He also has three girls, like me, and he's a little younger, little younger kids, but he's going through all the same stuff I do and I just so appreciate every time he's like, oh, I'm running a kid to this or that, just like you, and so we're very like-minded in that sense. We're also like-minded in the um, not afraid, you know, just like how do we? Let's just figure this out Like none of this is rocket science, and and so I'm thrilled to have them as a partner and I'm really grateful for everything you just said.

Speaker 3: 1:27:09

Yeah, I mean, I mean, when I listened to that audio clip I had made some notes. Just, you know, one thing that stuck out was, you know, his and he commented on it a couple times like the value there is in taking risk, and like having skin in the game and a pursuit, and like the you know what that is based off of is like that concept of loss aversion. You know, like if humans behave in a way that's more strongly driven by motivation to avoid losses than to pursue gains, so if you have skin in the game, you've given yourself something to lose, so you're more biologically inclined to like do everything to make it work.

Speaker 1: 1:27:52

That's interesting I think it's super interesting. I mean, I'd love to talk more and more and more business with you, because there's all sorts of dynamics, including that one which is there's a lot of people that talk about this or that, but, you know, throw some money in and then let's see what happens, you know it makes a big difference.

Speaker 1: 1:28:14

And it totally does. But you know, I wouldn't have done it without. So, yes, I have invested some money in this project and we're asking people in the community, including friends of mine, for money. That's a whole different dynamic, right. But once you have that in place, you are super intentional with everything you do. You know every single second. You know I mean, this is what I'm doing, along with my other stuff.

Speaker 3: 1:28:45

Yeah, you're a hundred percent A hundred percent.

Speaker 1: 1:28:47

Yeah, it's awesome's awesome, it's good and you enjoy it, though it seems like um, I still have things I want to do in the world yeah I don't want to, just you know be done yeah, be done for sure and, and you know, I want to create something cool not even be done, just not be.

Speaker 3: 1:29:07

do more than stand on liquid and latitude 44. For sure, yeah, absolutely. Is that what you mean by that? Yeah, that's what I mean.

Speaker 1: 1:29:16

I want to do. I love those businesses and they still have lots of growth. But this is another thing I want to do and I want to get my kids into college and I want to, like you know, once everything is all that's done, I want to get back to my community, because I think that's the most important thing. You know just family and friends and where you live.

Speaker 3: 1:29:41

I think you're right. The other thing that I took note of and it's come up in other points of our conversation and also with other people that I talked to this incredible superpower you have of listening and you know like that John mentioned it, you know, and he made a point to say how he's tried to emulate that, because there's value there and it you know, we live in a world where people don't listen very well, I don't think. Is that have you always been good at that?

Speaker 1: 1:30:18

I'm listening.

Speaker 3: 1:30:21

Does that make sense? No, it does make sense. Like, have you always kind of been slow to respond? Like or like, really like. Do you consider that's the picture he painted of? You you know, and I love that because I'm horrible at it, but I want to get better because I see the value in it.

Speaker 1: 1:30:40

Well, I absolutely see the value in it and, if anything, I want to double down on it, you know, because I think the more you listen, you know let's jump back an hour ago on this podcast and kind of my struggles with like confidence and this or that. You know, once you have that, then that gives you the ability to listen. It's not like your ego.

Speaker 1: 1:31:09

You don't need to like place your ego in every situation you know, and so by listening you can better understand the other person or party or people and get to the right decision. And I think that patience is a sign that patience and listening is a sign of growth and confidence. And you know, at least from my point of view, like a non-Egalist, like let's just get this to the right place. You know, yeah, I do know. You know, because at Silicon Valley it was knives out. You know. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:31:49

And that was a whole different thing. I mean, there was super smart guys, for sure, but it was more about scoring points and just like attacking each other, you know. And so I maybe I rebounded from that in like um that would be hard for me, dude.

Speaker 3: 1:32:03

Yeah, Not your not your vibe.

Speaker 1: 1:32:06

And yet I I do think you're a better listener You're giving yourself credit for because you're listening to me this whole time.

Speaker 3: 1:32:12

but, um, uh, but yeah, I think that's something I want to double down on yeah in the in the coming years a couple more things that I wanted to talk about, podcast aside. Like you know, this is interesting to me. Um one was how you know. I asked you how you handle stresses or challenges both in your personal and professional life, and you responded Share it all.

Speaker 3: 1:32:36

I had a couple months of debilitating panic attacks in my early 30s. Learned that if too many small stresses add up, it manifested physiologically. Eventually learned to focus on one thing at a time. Shorten the list. I start most days off with the list that I cross off yeah, that's, uh, that's probably the um.

Speaker 1: 1:32:58

I don't really meditate, I probably want to learn to do that, but like lists for me is a form of that, I suppose yeah and it's just attacking, attacking them one at a time, and that can be everything from, you know, paying a bill to walking the dog to this or that, and it's a little bit anal, but like it totally helps me. Um, I, I loved that I had panic attacks, because they're so common. And here here's the crazy thing Again. I worked at Microsoft, then Amazon, then Apple really high-stress places.

Speaker 3: 1:33:36

Yeah, man.

Speaker 1: 1:33:37

And I had no joke. I saw four people through the course of those years rushed off on stretchers because they thought they were having a heart attack and all four of them were having panic attacks and two of them I talked to oh, after they and they kind of got settled down and I just shared my experience and we connected and it was all good. You know, because it's super common. You know, if you have too many things going on, it's hard for your body to process and you know, I love that because, like, I just think it's cool to go through something, understand it, own it and then, once you share it to other people, it's not such a big deal.

Speaker 3: 1:34:21

Totally.

Speaker 1: 1:34:21

You know, yeah. So, um, uh, yeah, I really I, I'm, I'm happy I, I experienced that for sure.

Speaker 3: 1:34:29

Is there anything that we haven't talked about, that that you want to cover? Um anything did we did, we kind of did we close the loop on on um Skyliner.

Speaker 1: 1:34:46

Club. I think so. Yeah, I think that's pretty solid.

Speaker 3: 1:34:49

Yeah, um, that's exciting. I think so. Yeah, I think that's pretty solid. Yeah, um, that's exciting.

Speaker 1: 1:34:51

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:34:51

I'm excited to watch. Yeah, we're going to go for it. I want to be. I'm going to be a member, Well.

Speaker 1: 1:34:58

I will, I will help that happen.

Speaker 3: 1:34:59

Yeah, no.

Speaker 1: 1:35:01

I think we're good man. I really appreciate it. I humbling to tell the story.

Speaker 3: 1:35:08

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:35:09

You know, but I truly believe I'm just beginning. You know, and we all are. You know, this is part of the journey.

Speaker 3: 1:35:16

This is one of the one of the one of my goals with this whole project, with podcasting on a community level, is to start to acquire kind of this archive of audio of just open conversations with community members who are, you know, directing the growth of the culture and the community that we live in, cause like this is that's going to be a big project and you get, you know that's going to create, you know it's, it's just going to be cool and and to like, have this and look back on it and just have it kind of exist out there. I think it's a cool. It's a cool new way to kind of document a community because, like this stuff's fun, you know, and like it. I know it's been almost two hours, but it's like a time capsule.

Speaker 1: 1:36:06

I think it's great. I've had a great time. I I am going to absolutely connect you with my friend James. I want to know more about your wedding story Story booth, story booth, I think that's something I'll invest in you. Yeah, it makes sense.

Speaker 3: 1:36:22

Yeah, I can, I can practice my pitch. Okay, I pitched it last year at um during Ben Venture Conference. Yeah, uh, my buddy, kyle McLeod, started a kind of kind of more local, regional um open early stage pitch contest and the last year was the first one at uh in the banquet room of Deschutes Brewery, and I entered it just to kind of get feedback and won which was awesome yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:36:57

And also just the process of kind of learning how to pitch and I don't do well in public speaking, which is ironic, so it was good for me Super outside my comfort zone, okay, but like just learning the process and like there's some cool people I've met through this, like Meg Chun, who was an amazing mentor and still is that kind of helps me.

Speaker 3: 1:37:21

Yeah, I bounce ideas off her and she's she's incredibly intelligent and rational and giving of her insight, you know. And so she helped me with that pitch and and so that was enough to kind of like, wow, maybe there's something here. And now we're like. I did my first event last week up at um UW and at the museum of flight and on the. Boeing fleet field. Amazing, yeah, it was epic Dude, it's fun.

Speaker 3: 1:37:48

There's something to it, because it's, it's this, but which is fun for people to connect. You know, my I'm, I'm telling myself in the future, you can either leverage technology or humanity. Yeah, you know, and this is going to become, I think, more valuable to people, just the process of interacting, you know.

Speaker 1: 1:38:12

So I totally agree. The one thing you said earlier that I don't agree with is it's not a five year thing, it's like a one to two year thing for you. You're going to make this happen, oh yeah, and I think it's fine to. I think you should hold on to your PA work, oh yeah, because it probably makes money and you're good at it, but you're really good at this.

Speaker 1: 1:38:36

Oh, thanks man, I appreciate that feedback and it's true and, um, this is kind of everything I mean, and not to get all heady, but like, uh, the you go back in time. It's like storytelling is everything. Totally. It's like how cultures were created. Yeah, and so I look forward to helping you as best I can and just watching your journey. So it's awesome, Thank you.

Speaker 3: 1:39:05

Yeah, rob, I guess that does it. I guess that does it. Thanks again. Yeah, rob, I guess that does it. I guess that does it. Thanks again.

Speaker 2: 1:39:21

Yeah, totally yeah. Now little brother has done gone on. I'll join him in a song. I'm gonna join the family circle at the throng.

Speaker 3: 1:39:34

Hey, thanks for listening to Ben Magazine's the Circling Podcast. Make sure to visit benmagazinecom and learn about all the outdoor adventures in our area, as well as upcoming featured community events, local artist profiles, our dining guide and more. And remember, enter promo code podcast at checkout for your $5 annual subscription. Our theme song was written by Carl Perkins and performed by Aaron Kohlbaker and Aaron Zerflu of the Aarons. We love mail, so please send us comments, questions or art to thecirclingpodcast at benmagazinecom. Support the Circling Podcast by becoming a member on Patreon at patreoncom. Forward slash thecirclingpodcast and learn how your financial contribution will support local nonprofits while also supporting local podcasting. Follow us on Instagram at the Circling Podcast to learn more about past, current and upcoming episodes. Please subscribe to the Circling Podcast on all major podcast platforms and leave us a review. It really does help.

Speaker 3: 1:40:42

I'd like to say a special thank you to all of those who participated in the making of this episode, as it wouldn't be the same without your contribution, and I appreciate your trust. In search of outdoor equipment or a new stand-up paddleboard, make sure to visit Rob and his partners at Stand-On Liquid and Latitude 44, as, odds are, they'll have exactly what you need, and stay tuned for more on the development of the Skyliner Club. Lastly, if you know someone who you think would enjoy today's episode, please share it with them today. Hey, thanks for your time. Central Oregon, Get outside. We'll see you out there. And remember the health of our community relies on us.